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Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-old[W:262]

Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Grand Jury's are prosecution tools.

As Justice Scalia put in in Williams, the case I cited, the grand jury is an accusatory body, not an adjudicatory one. The grand jury's purpose is to assess whether there is adequate basis for bringing a criminal charge.

and no one is there to challenge anything the prosecutor says.

Yes, that's how grand juries have operated for centuries, as Justice Scalia discussed in the passage I quoted. What of it?

The prosecutor decides what they see . . . It isn't a finder of fact. It simply decides whether there cause to proceed with a trial. And that is based completely in what the prosecutor presents.

That's not entirely accurate. A grand jury cannot compel witnesses to appear or evidence to be produced, but it can appeal to the court to have those things done.

"The [grand jury has] power to investigate criminal wrongdoing . . . Unlike a court, whose jurisdiction is predicated upon a specific case or controversy, the grand jury can investigate merely on suspicion that the law is being violated, or even because it wants assurance that it is not. It need not identify the offender it suspects, or even the precise nature of the offense it is investigating. The grand jury requires no authorization from its constituting court to initiate an investigation."

The proceedings further are secret. Virtually no on sees what goes on.

Yes, that is how grand juries operate. What of it?

If a prosecutor wants an indictment he'll probably get it. Conversely if he doesn't want one he probably won't.

The duty of the prosecution is to see that justice is done. It would be unethical of any prosecutor to misuse a grand jury to protect a person he believes has committed a serious crime by purposely withholding relevant evidence of that crime. And as I noted, the grand jury has broad power, exercised through the court, to compel the appearance of witnesses and the production of evidence. If the grand jury sensed the prosecution was covering up evidence to shield the person suspected, it could force that evidence to be presented to it.

There was also a lot of hostility toward the use of a grand jury in the Ferguson case, and very little evidence that the people hostile to it gave a damn about the fact indictment by a grand jury for serious crimes is a hallowed constitutional right. Not one in a thousand of them knows the Supreme Court has never applied that right to the states--they just don't give a damn about constitutional rights in general.
 
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Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Oh dear. See this has become a major problem. Surely the GJ will be privy to this info. Does it surprise you that the DP resident cops continue to defend all manor of police excess. I really don't think they believe cops can ever fail on the job said:
Did his training incident cause the young asshole to carry a weapon and threaten and intimidate people at school? Did the officers problems with his girlfriend from several months ago cause the little thug to walk up and down the sidewalk at a public park threatening people with a weapon? Did his negative assessment from a PD cause Rice to jump up, lift his shirt and reach for the weapon he had been seen on video threatening others with?
 
Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-old[W:

From watching the video and knowing people's positions:

How the hell can you form an opinion on this? This video was not at an angle to REALLY form an opinion. Not an intelligent one. There are a bunch of factors in this, including officer response.

Now. I have a few theories. Did the officers role up thinking it was a kid playing with a BB gun and get surprised that it looked real and panic? That could account for the close role up and ensuing stupidity.

I don't see this as murder. Not from the video. I do see evidence of poor reaction which is plenty of evidence for a multi million dollar lawsuit. And both these guys have a child's blood on their conscious. I have a few lingering questions like did they try and cover it up? If so...that deserves jail time. Who called 911 and what did they report? What was said on dispatch? That kind of thing. There are a few FACTS I want. But this video is evidence that a kid died and that the 2 cops were dumb enough to get close....it doesn't tell us why and certainly doesn't give a clear picture on what happened.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Did his training incident cause the young asshole to carry a weapon and threaten and intimidate people at school? Did the officers problems with his girlfriend from several months ago cause the little thug to walk up and down the sidewalk at a public park threatening people with a weapon? Did his negative assessment from a PD cause Rice to jump up, lift his shirt and reach for the weapon he had been seen on video threatening others with?

No..but we can't have officers crying during their training either...this should have been a red flag for anyone who works. I am not allowed as a nurse to burst into tears when I am learning a skill, nor am I allowed to let my personal life interfere with my job. If I am incompetent, I am gone. Why is this any different? BTW....Tamir Rice was 12 years old with a no criminal record and a stellar school record. He was not taught any better. His parents are to blame for this one as well. They are both idiots.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

No..but we can't have officers crying during their training either...this should have been a red flag for anyone who works. I am not allowed as a nurse to burst into tears when I am learning a skill, nor am I allowed to let my personal life interfere with my job. If I am incompetent, I am gone. Why is this any different? BTW....Tamir Rice was 12 years old with a no criminal record and a stellar school record. He was not taught any better. His parents are to blame for this one as well. They are both idiots.

I don't know the kids backstory. Is there a good place to learn that?
 
Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-old[W:

From watching the video and knowing people's positions:

How the hell can you form an opinion on this? This video was not at an angle to REALLY form an opinion. Not an intelligent one. There are a bunch of factors in this, including officer response.

Now. I have a few theories. Did the officers role up thinking it was a kid playing with a BB gun and get surprised that it looked real and panic? That could account for the close role up and ensuing stupidity.

I don't see this as murder. Not from the video. I do see evidence of poor reaction which is plenty of evidence for a multi million dollar lawsuit. And both these guys have a child's blood on their conscious. I have a few lingering questions like did they try and cover it up? If so...that deserves jail time. Who called 911 and what did they report? What was said on dispatch? That kind of thing. There are a few FACTS I want. But this video is evidence that a kid died and that the 2 cops were dumb enough to get close....it doesn't tell us why and certainly doesn't give a clear picture on what happened.

My theory is...this was the first call of this type for the shooting officer. The department he came from was a affluent suburb. He was as cop for less than a year. I think the 911 call was not relayed completely and hyped the cop up. He appeared to me that he was panicking. There is a lot of info on this case...here is the 911 call:

LISTEN | 911 caller reports Tamir Rice incident

One of the problems here...no one wants to work in Cleveland...and if they do...the first opening in a suburb and they are gone. The City must make a decision between being short staffed or hiring a pulse and a heart beat. Sometimes bad hires are made under desperation.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

As Justice Scalia put in in Williams, the case I cited, the grand jury is an accusatory body, not an adjudicatory one. The grand jury's purpose is to assess whether there is adequate basis for bringing a criminal charge.



Yes, that's how grand juries have operated for centuries, as Justice Scalia discussed in the passage I quoted. What of it?



That's not entirely accurate. A grand jury cannot compel witnesses to appear or evidence to be produced, but it can appeal to the court to have those things done.

"The [grand jury has] power to investigate criminal wrongdoing . . . Unlike a court, whose jurisdiction is predicated upon a specific case or controversy, the grand jury can investigate merely on suspicion that the law is being violated, or even because it wants assurance that it is not. It need not identify the offender it suspects, or even the precise nature of the offense it is investigating. The grand jury requires no authorization from its constituting court to initiate an investigation."



Yes, that is how grand juries operate. What of it?



The duty of the prosecution is to see that justice is done. It would be unethical of any prosecutor to misuse a grand jury to protect a person he believes has committed a serious crime by purposely withholding relevant evidence of that crime. And as I noted, the grand jury has broad power, exercised through the court, to compel the appearance of witnesses and the production of evidence. If the grand jury sensed the prosecution was covering up evidence to shield the person suspected, it could force that evidence to be presented to it.

There was also a lot of hostility toward the use of a grand jury in the Ferguson case, and very little evidence that the people hostile to it gave a damn about the fact indictment by a grand jury for serious crimes is a hallowed constitutional right. Not one in a thousand of them knows the Supreme Court has never applied that right to the states--they just don't give a damn about constitutional rights in general.

Yes I am aware of what the grand jury's purpose, at least on paper, is.

The basic problem is a lack of transparency coupled with a inherent conflict of interest given that the prosecutors and police generally work together. And the mere fact that that's the way GJ have always operated doesn't make it correct in general or in specific situations. Until about 10-15 years ago in NYC police crimes were prosecuted by a bureau of the State Attorney General's office and not local DAs specifically because of concerns of impartiality on the part of the DA. I think that initially came about from the Knapp Commission hearings in the early 70s but don't remember for sure.

IS that to say that all DAs are going to throw cases involving police? Of course not. Mosby in Baltimore and Brandenburg in Albuquerque are proof otherwise but we are in a position where we have to trust public officials to do the right thing in a situation where, frankly, there is incentive to not.

On GJ powers - yes the Grand Jury has broad subpeona powers but who actually exercises those powers? The jurors themselves or the prosecutor working with them?
 
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Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-old[W:

My theory is...this was the first call of this type for the shooting officer. The department he came from was a affluent suburb. He was as cop for less than a year. I think the 911 call was not relayed completely and hyped the cop up. He appeared to me that he was panicking. There is a lot of info on this case...here is the 911 call:

LISTEN | 911 caller reports Tamir Rice incident

One of the problems here...no one wants to work in Cleveland...and if they do...the first opening in a suburb and they are gone. The City must make a decision between being short staffed or hiring a pulse and a heart beat. Sometimes bad hires are made under desperation.

Sucks. I get it. I hate big cities too. I grew up small town. But I have read multiple times he was a rookie. And that is absolutely a factor. I just don't think this video itself is good enough to get a clear view of the incident. Not even the officers reaction.
 
Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-old[W:

I work with images all day long so I'm not speaking from any kind of ignorance when it comes to these things.
Further more, what you attribute to your self isn't apparent as the video was not being reviewed in a vacuum.





I just don't think this video itself is good enough to get a clear view of the incident.
While it is not absolutely clear, it is not like the video is being reviewed in a vacuum.

Creating theories and speculating outside of what is known would be wrong, but in this case there are things that can be intelligently assumed from the available information.
We can assume it shows a twelve year old boy named Tamir Rice who was in possession of a toy gun.
Based on the fact that he had this gun and reports of pointing, we can assume that is actually what he was doing when we see him in the video pointing what appears to be a gun. (It is not like we can postulate that it wasn't a gun he was pointing. That would be absurd)

We can also assume that what looks like a gun in the large image I linked earlier, is actually the gun he had in his possession, which would also be conformation of what the Officer supposedly stated.
So yeah, there are some things that can be assumed that are pretty much accurate depictions and confirmations.



Previously provided Huff post image.
2000x1000
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/2326464/images/o-TAMIR-RICE-facebook.jpg
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

I don't know the kids backstory. Is there a good place to learn that?

Here are a couple of good articles. Tamir did not have a criminal or juvenille record. The shooting officer's record was actually worse as far as job performance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Tamir_Rice
Tamir Rice's mother, grandmother, reflect on boy's life, death (videos) | cleveland.com

As far as blame, I tend to lean towards his Mother...who should be accountable for a 12 year old at all times. The media here was blasted for drudging up Tamir's parents background because they used this information to connect a violent past. I personally, would dry up and die if my son was killed over this and I was not there to protect him. She was home and she should have been aware of what he was doing. I work with a distant relative of Tamir's Mom, and according to her...this woman should have never been a Mother. All she is worried about right now is getting paid. She has sued for Millions from a city who can't even afford snow removal. Settling a lawsuit would be the last thing I would worry about during the grieving process.
 
Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-old[W:

All she is worried about right now is getting paid. She has sued for Millions from a city who can't even afford snow removal. Settling a lawsuit would be the last thing I would worry about during the grieving process.

Maybe she's the one who called the police knowing this would happen?
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

I work with images all day long so I'm not speaking from any kind of ignorance when it comes to these things. Hell, I've actually given what could be considered classes on image quality in this very forum. Any person who tries to tell you that the sheer number of artifacts, blurriness and jaggies allow for anything other than interpretation of what is going on is lying to you.

Distance and lack of sound. Biggest factors in why this video is not good enough to make a solid opinion. And since I can't enhance anything...I am going off what I can actually see.
 
Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-old[W:

Further more, what you attribute to your self isn't apparent as the video was not being reviewed in a vacuum.






While it is not absolutely clear, it is not like the video is being reviewed in a vacuum.

Creating theories and speculating outside of what is known would be wrong, but in this case there are things that can be intelligently assumed from the available information.
We can assume it shows a twelve year old boy named Tamir Rice who was in possession of a toy gun.
Based on the fact that he had this gun and reports of pointing, we can assume that is actually what he was doing when we see him in the video pointing what appears to be a gun. (It is not like we can postulate that it wasn't a gun he was pointing. That would be absurd)

We can also assume that what looks like a gun in the large image I linked earlier, is actually the gun he had in his possession, which would also be conformation of what the Officer supposedly stated.
So yeah, there are some things that can be assumed that are pretty much accurate depictions and confirmations.



Previously provided Huff post image.
2000x1000
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/2326464/images/o-TAMIR-RICE-facebook.jpg

Doesn't really give me a picture. And the other evidence is important. I feel like I read about this crying at the firing line? Sounds to me like the department didn't do a good eval before hiring.
 
Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-ol...

Here are a couple of good articles. Tamir did not have a criminal or juvenille record. The shooting officer's record was actually worse as far as job performance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Tamir_Rice
Tamir Rice's mother, grandmother, reflect on boy's life, death (videos) | cleveland.com

As far as blame, I tend to lean towards his Mother...who should be accountable for a 12 year old at all times. The media here was blasted for drudging up Tamir's parents background because they used this information to connect a violent past. I personally, would dry up and die if my son was killed over this and I was not there to protect him. She was home and she should have been aware of what he was doing. I work with a distant relative of Tamir's Mom, and according to her...this woman should have never been a Mother. All she is worried about right now is getting paid. She has sued for Millions from a city who can't even afford snow removal. Settling a lawsuit would be the last thing I would worry about during the grieving process.

I'm not shocked by that, but then when I was 12 I was out with a BB and pellet gun shooting squirrels and birds and whatever else a 12 year old with a BB gun might think to shoot. And an old toilet that was left out...but that was with a sling shot.

My parents taught me well though. And I wasn't disrespectful to police. And I wasn't ever the one to be reaching for a gun around them. But then I had hunted and carried REAL guns around cops (with supervision).
 
Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-old[W:

Maybe she's the one who called the police knowing this would happen?

You got evidence of this?
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

:laughat::doh
Still not supporting what you said. Figures
And this has to be one of the lamest replies I have ever seen.
This isn't about me, or do you not know that?


Argumentum ad populum :doh More logical fallacy. :lamo
It has as much meaning as if I had said the following: There's plenty of people here, and on other forums, and on the radio and TV who have seen the video, and agree with what I havew said and not with you or the Judge.

Again just showing that you have no valid argument and can not refute the arguments made.



Just more nonsense form you. It really is all you have.

The majority of people viewing the footage take issue with the cops for one very good reason that I know isn't lost on you. You just will defend a cop no matter what he does. Others have pointed that out as well.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Who wants to be in a profession where every move you make is dissected by every member of the media, race baiters, "concerned" citizen", your own mayor and boss.
Looking to roll you under a bus to "keep the peace" with said race pimps and left media. Neither of whom have ever risked a damn thing in their lives.

You have no idea who has ever risked what. And nobody's interested in watching "every move you make". We're only interested when those moves violate department code of ethics, or worse are illegal.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

The majority of people viewing the footage take issue with the cops for one very good reason that I know isn't lost on you. You just will defend a cop no matter what he does. Others have pointed that out as well.

The amount of time it took to shoot the kid. Problem is...the video is very clear to make a call on that.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Had the kid not been trying to intimidate people with a fake gun. had he not been in a public place pointing it around the child would still be with us.
speak to that monecresto.

I already spoke to that, it was my first post in the thread I believe.
 
Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-old[W:

Distance and lack of sound. Biggest factors in why this video is not good enough to make a solid opinion. And since I can't enhance anything...I am going off what I can actually see.


Doesn't really give me a picture. And the other evidence is important. I feel like I read about this crying at the firing line? Sounds to me like the department didn't do a good eval before hiring.
A picture? As in an in-general overall picture?
It pretty much does.
Again. It is not being reviewed in a vacuum.
Again. It can be used to ascertain certain things.​

As already pointed out it can be used to form a solid opinion of certain things, such as whether or not he had the gun and whether or not he was pointing the gun in his possession. Just as we can ascertain that the Officer was responding to Tamir's action in regards to the gun.
Anyone ignoring that it can be used to form solid opinions in regards to some specifics is engaged in purposeful obtuseness.

And I am not saying that you should form an opinion, I am saying it is apparent that solid opinions can be formed in regards to specifics and that one should not ignore that.


The amount of time it took to shoot the kid. Problem is...the video is very clear to make a call on that.
The video is clear that the Officer was responding to the threat that Tamir presented.

As it was a "response", the amount of time and distance is irrelevant to whether or not his response was criminal.





The majority of people viewing the footage take issue with the cops for one very good reason that I know isn't lost on you. You just will defend a cop no matter what he does. Others have pointed that out as well.
:doh More lame claims, baiting and logical fallacy. Figures.

The majority? :lamo Prove your logical fallacy.



Me? Again showing you have no idea what you are talking about. It truly is a shame.
Try refuting the arguments made. Never mind, I already know you can't.
 
Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-old[W:




A picture? As in an in-general overall picture?
It pretty much does.
Again. It is not being reviewed in a vacuum.
Again. It can be used to ascertain certain things.​

As already pointed out it can be used to form a solid opinion of certain things, such as whether or not he had the gun and whether or not he was pointing the gun in his possession. Just as we can ascertain that the Officer was responding to Tamir's action in regards to the gun.
Anyone ignoring that it can be used to form solid opinions in regards to some specifics is engaged in purposeful obtuseness.

And I am not saying that you should form an opinion, I am saying it is apparent that solid opinions can be formed in regards to specifics and that one should not ignore that.


The video is clear that the Officer was responding to the threat that Tamir presented.

As it was a "response", the amount of time and distance is irrelevant to whether or not his response was criminal.





:doh More lame claims, baiting and logical fallacy. Figures.

The majority? :lamo Prove your logical fallacy.



Me? Again showing you have no idea what you are talking about. It truly is a shame.
Try refuting the arguments made. Never mind, I already know you can't.

Literally the only 3 things I know are that he had the pellet gun. He was killed. And it took only a second or 2 for the incident to transpire.

The officers drove up really close. Yes. That too. But I don't know why.

Sure. It isn't being reviewed in a vacuum and it shouldn't be. But this video isn't evidence of criminal action. Nor does it exonerate the officer.
 
Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-old[W:

The officers drove up really close. Yes. That too. But I don't know why.
Which is irrelevant to his response being legal or not.


But this video isn't evidence of criminal action.
Of course it isn't.


Nor does it exonerate the officer.
Yeah, it pretty much does.
It shows the Officer responding to the threat that Tamir presented by reaching/grabbing the gun.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

You have no idea who has ever risked what. And nobody's interested in watching "every move you make". We're only interested when those moves violate department code of ethics, or worse are illegal.

I have not idea. LOLOLOL Sure buddy. And yes, every move and word will be parsed and analyzed.
 
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