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Thread: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-old[W:262]

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    Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

    Quote Originally Posted by gdgyva View Post
    you are basing an opinion on facts that are known now, but were unknown then

    anyone can look back with hindsight and make different decisions

    1. tamir had a weapon....it was unknown if it was a toy or real
    2. he had raised his shirt and was reaching into his waistband where the weapon was located

    those are undeniable facts

    now, you want cops to wait to see what the person with the weapon will do before they react....
    Absolutely. At least pull the weapon. We don't know what he was doing with his hands or why. The police didn't issue any command to show his hands, and if they did there wasn't time to comply. So, yes, I assume that kind of risk is part of the job of being police. I don't see how society can accept execution in those circumstances.

    they can be trained to do so.....and we will have a lot more dead cops on the street
    And if they're allowed to execute people on mere suspicion of posing a deadly threat, a lot more dead innocent civilians. I'd place the higher burden on trained police.

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    Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    This is all based on your vast experience as a law enforcement officer, your extensive time on their training committees, and your own personal experience as law enforcement right?
    Aren't you once again defending cops without even seeing the video?

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    Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    It's my opinion that they broke the law. If it goes to trial then it's up to an attorney to prove it to a jury.
    you have provide no evidence to support your opinion.
    there was nothing they did that was against the law.

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    Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

    Quote Originally Posted by Tettsuo View Post
    First, there was no weapon in Tamir Rice's possession.

    2nd, Tamir Rice didn't have time to draw or drop the toy. The police didn't know if he was going to draw his weapon or drop it on the ground. He never had time to do anything BUT die. In fact, they didn't even give him time to show the tip and therefore see if it's a toy or not.

    So to answer your question, yes. Give him time to relinquish the "weapon".

    3rd, you and others keep repeating the lie that Tamir Rice pointed the toy at the officers. He never actually pointed anything at the officers. The other lie is to continue to call the toy he was holding a weapon. It was not a weapon, even though it looked like one.
    Sorry...but when you brandish a 'toy' (one that has been altered to appear real) as a weapon, you are guilty of assault with a weapon.
    Words, without an act, cannot constitute an assault. For example, no assault has occurred where a person waves his arms at another and shouts, "I'm going to shoot you!" where no gun is visible or apparent. However, if the threatening words are accompanied by some action that indicates the perpetrator has the ability to carry out a threat, an assault has occurred.

    It is an assault where a person threatens to shoot another while pointing a gun, even where the victim later learns that the gun was not loaded or even real. Moreover, pointing a gun without an accompanying verbal threat is still an assault, assuming the victim saw the gun.

    - See more at: Elements of Assault - FindLaw

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    Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

    Quote Originally Posted by reinoe View Post
    Cops are trained to get as close to a "threat" as possible so that cops can't maneuver. Cops are trained not to give any commands to a suspect. Cops are trained to open fire on a suspect as soon as they approach.

    If this is the training cops receive then the shooting was justified.
    you can't be more wrong, but this is what I expect.
    since none of that actually happened. you are wrong.

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    Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

    I don't see why the police didn't stop, say, fifty yards away, and use the bullhorn to tell the kid to drop the gun. It's as if by pulling up right next to him, where he might easily have shot them if he had had a real gun, they were trying to create a pretext for shooting him. I doubt there was the premeditation needed to prove first-degree murder, but it certainly looks like unlawful homicide. I am glad to see the D.A. plans to use a grand jury.

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    Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Absolutely. At least pull the weapon. We don't know what he was doing with his hands or why. The police didn't issue any command to show his hands, and if they did there wasn't time to comply. So, yes, I assume that kind of risk is part of the job of being police. I don't see how society can accept execution in those circumstances.
    100% wrong. even if I am not a cop I am not going to wait for someone to pull a weapon that is walking toward me and reaching into their pants to pull a gun.
    sure we do. he pulled up his shirt and was reaching for the gun. that is enough right there for the police or any other citizen to react.

    in that situation they shouldn't be expected to issue any kind of command. their safety is key.
    there was no execution (appeal to emotion)


    And if they're allowed to execute people on mere suspicion of posing a deadly threat, a lot more dead innocent civilians. I'd place the higher burden on trained police.
    since they aren't executing people (appeal to emotion) they acted within their right to protect themselves and others from people waving guns in public.

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    Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    I don't see why the police didn't stop, say, fifty yards away, and use the bullhorn to tell the kid to drop the gun. It's as if by pulling up right next to him, where he might easily have shot them if he had had a real gun, they were trying to create a pretext for shooting him. I doubt there was the premeditation needed to prove first-degree murder, but it certainly looks like unlawful homicide. I am glad to see the D.A. plans to use a grand jury.
    grand jury isn't going to put them for trial what was in the video.

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    Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    As a general rule, you can not claim self defense if you are the one who knowingly and willingly put yourself in a situation where it's reasonable that deadly force would be necessary UNLESS you are doing so to protect someone else who is imminent danger of death or great bodily harm. In this specific circumstance no such threat existed until the cops arrived in the manner they did. The basic principle is that you can't walk up to someone and smack them in the nose then claim self defense for shooting them when they hit you back.

    It's totally understandable that this kid was deemed to be a threat. There is nothing unreasonable about a bystander calling the cops and saying "there's a kid waving a gun around" because that's exactly what was happening. It was also perfectly reasonable for the cops to show and stop that behavior. What is unreasonable is the manner in which the kid was stopped. The cops were WAY more aggressive than the situation called for.
    Your theory doesn't hold water.
    It is the Officer's job to put their selves in dangerous situations to enforce the laws.

    I asked for the law that was violated. You haven't provided one.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
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    Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

    Plus from what I remember wasn't the police report of the incident completely different than what the video shows happening? I'll have to pull it up later since I don't have time now.
    I call my own shots, largely based on an accumulation of data, and everyone knows it.
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