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Bernie Sanders wants to take back “family values” from the GOP

Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

Whatever, people come up with all kinds of goofy contradictory labels for themselves. Doesn't change reality.

On this board, "left libertarians" are indistinguishable from garden variety libs.
Fair enough.

But, you're attempting to neatly pigeon hole the electorate.

For example, not everyone with progressive & liberal ideas wants to give-out endless hand-outs & entitlements, or allow individuals to abrogate social & financial responsibility - yet unabashed entitlements & the lack-of-responsibility are supposedly the hallmark of liberalism.

Here's something I wrote in the 'Cruz, JFK' thread last night, if you're interested:

Debate Politics
 
Re: Bernie Sanders wants to take back “family values” from the GOP

Do YOU have a business with employees?

Is there a point you'd like to make, without excessive drama?

Its a simple question. You are the only one injecting drama. I asked a simple question.
Vance, It seems you're trying to make this personal about me, whereas if you had an arguable point to make you could've made it - I'm not going to be drawn down that path.

My personal life & it's circumstance has nothing to bear on the merit (or lack thereof) of your argument.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

It isn't really "third party paying for it", it would simply be a mandated part of any compensation package for workers. Employers would be able to make up any cost from other parts of the compensation package. I am not saying it is a good idea, I am not sure but kinda unsold at this point. I would like to hear what the arguments against it are at the very least before I would make up my mind.

And while he calls it maternity leave, I think he intends for both parents from the way he words it.

yeah that means less raises, less promotions and less promotion increases.
why should I be punished for working because betty chose to get pregnant?

pregnancy is a choice and neither employee's nor employers should have to pay for that choice. she has vacation time and sick leave and long and short term disability.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders wants to take back “family values” from the GOP

A disaster in your opinion & from your point of view.

But, some others of us see three-decades of (supposed) 'trickle-down economics', and are still waiting to see the results we've been promised!

yea tell all those people getting government checks how great they are doing on government assistance and that by taxing those evil rich people more they will get off
of government assistance. lol

almost 18 trillion dollars has been spent on the so called war on povery for only a 2% drop. so giving money to the poor is evidently not working.
redistribution doesn't work and plenty of countries have proven this.

there is nothing that will fully solve the problem either. there will always be wealthy and poor.

you want to close the wage gap then you have to get the economy working and get the economy demanding employee's.
that is where democrats and Obama have failed. their constant war on prosperity has lead to the stagnation of the US economy.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders wants to take back “family values” from the GOP

I would be inclined to agree with you, if you could cite examples from Sen. Sander's plan supporting the degree of intervention you describe above - I have not seen Sen. Sanders call for raising the federal income tax to 75%, for instance.

you can't promise all these people things and not raise taxes by a huge amount. just on his healthcare plan alone most countries have a 40-60% tax on healthcare.
that doesn't include the income tax and VAT taxes on top of it. how do you expect someone to live when you are taking 70-75% of their check in taxes?

But there are some fixes in the tax code & other areas that I think could do us good.
here is but the tax system needs a total overhaul, and nothing that democrats would support because it takes power away from government.

I'd personally like to see some small tax or other incentive to bring overseas corporate money back to the States (and hopefully invested here, too)
I would give them a 2 day tax free day to bring money into the US overseas as long as that money was invested in jobs and growth.

I also see no problem putting infrastructure rebuilding jobs into the hands of working-class Americans, giving them money for their labor to stimulate our heretofore consumer-driven economy.

ugg all those shovel ready jobs just worked out really well didn't they. that was an utter failure.

I also would like to see the capital gains tax rates move a little closer to the income tax rates for those that primarily dervive their income from capital gains.

yes lets kill investment completely. that will make the economy run better.

There's a lot that can be done within the framework of Sen. Sander's plan that's sensible, not radical - and quite honestly, I think there's some populist momentum for some of these things.

not really most of his ideas call for massive tax increases on working people. but it is easy to call for everything to be free when you are not the one footing the bill.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

Fair enough.

But, you're attempting to neatly pigeon hole the electorate.

For example, not everyone with progressive & liberal ideas wants to give-out endless hand-outs & entitlements, or allow individuals to abrogate social & financial responsibility - yet unabashed entitlements & the lack-of-responsibility are supposedly the hallmark of liberalism.

Here's something I wrote in the 'Cruz, JFK' thread last night, if you're interested:

Debate Politics

I'm not really trying to pigeon hole people, but neither will I pretend Sanders is some kind of "libertarian".

And yes, there is the occasional reasonable liberal, but you and I both know that's the exception to the rule. .
 
Re: Bernie Sanders wants to take back “family values” from the GOP

Vance, It seems you're trying to make this personal about me, whereas if you had an arguable point to make you could've made it - I'm not going to be drawn down that path.

My personal life & it's circumstance has nothing to bear on the merit (or lack thereof) of your argument.
Im trying to have a dialogue with you. You are ALL FOR this. I am asking a simple and direct question. You respond with this 'drama'. The dialogue is based off a simple question. Do you have a business with employees? Yes or no?
 
Re: Bernie Sanders wants to take back “family values” from the GOP

yea tell all those people getting government checks how great they are doing on government assistance and that by taxing those evil rich people more they will get off
of government assistance. lol

almost 18 trillion dollars has been spent on the so called war on povery for only a 2% drop. so giving money to the poor is evidently not working.
redistribution doesn't work and plenty of countries have proven this.

there is nothing that will fully solve the problem either. there will always be wealthy and poor.

you want to close the wage gap then you have to get the economy working and get the economy demanding employee's.
that is where democrats and Obama have failed. their constant war on prosperity has lead to the stagnation of the US economy.

you can't promise all these people things and not raise taxes by a huge amount. just on his healthcare plan alone most countries have a 40-60% tax on healthcare.
that doesn't include the income tax and VAT taxes on top of it. how do you expect someone to live when you are taking 70-75% of their check in taxes?


here is but the tax system needs a total overhaul, and nothing that democrats would support because it takes power away from government.


I would give them a 2 day tax free day to bring money into the US overseas as long as that money was invested in jobs and growth.



ugg all those shovel ready jobs just worked out really well didn't they. that was an utter failure.



yes lets kill investment completely. that will make the economy run better.



not really most of his ideas call for massive tax increases on working people. but it is easy to call for everything to be free when you are not the one footing the bill.
Thanks for the reply, and while there's far too many points than I'd care address categorically, I found you've had some (if even slight) agreement on one or two of mine, and I agree on a few of yours.

The war on poverty has been an abject failure on every level. I'm not sure how to solve it (I've tossed out the idea of eliminating all entitlements, and providing a small guaranteed income for all, which (along with single-payer healthcare) would provide all the social safety I think I'd ever care to supply my fellow Americans while still providing incentive to better oneself (unlike means-tested benefits). I'd dump the whole current means-tested entitlement systems, ideally.

Barring the above, I see no reason entitlements such as welfare & disability couldn't be curtailed substantially; strictly from anecdotal experience, a huge number of the recipients I know are abusing the system - easily 1/2 of the one's I know, maybe more (I know this is not a statistical sample - but I'd cut them drastically).

If we were to cut the current entitlements, along with closing some of the tax loopholes I listed in my prior post, I'd like us to then zero-out the deficit and use the rest for sensible social programs that are not means tested, along with infrastructure improvement. I'd also toss a few obligatory bucks at the national debt, just to look good.

As to single-payer healthcare, I'm not sure where your figures of 40-60% "tax" come from, but we are already have 43% of our fellow Americans being provided single-payer healthcare in this country (Medicare, MedicAid, Disability) - I'd extend it (MediCare) for all in a sliding fashion over quite a few years so as to not shock the system. I'd keep our current private provider system, so most accurately we'd have a single-payer/private provider system. As to costs, they'd have to be curtailed absolutely - I believe this is the key. Other countries have done this, and quite a few have better healthcare outcomes than we currently do, and they have lower costs as well.
 
I would be inclined to agree with you, if you could cite examples from Sen. Sander's plan supporting the degree of intervention you describe above - I have not seen Sen. Sanders call for raising the federal income tax to 75%, for instance.

But there are some fixes in the tax code & other areas that I think could do us good.

I'd personally like to see some small tax or other incentive to bring overseas corporate money back to the States (and hopefully invested here, too)

I also see no problem putting infrastructure rebuilding jobs into the hands of working-class Americans, giving them money for their labor to stimulate our heretofore consumer-driven economy.

I also would like to see the capital gains tax rates move a little closer to the income tax rates for those that primarily dervive their income from capital gains.

There's a lot that can be done within the framework of Sen. Sander's plan that's sensible, not radical - and quite honestly, I think there's some populist momentum for some of these things.

He calls fo Tax Increases on Corporations and the wealthy and he thinks charging Middle class Consumers MORE for the energy via destructive regulatory mandates on industry and power generation plants is going to stop " Global warming ".

He's a Socialist and given Socialisms current state of failure and bankruptcy I cannot believe ANYONE takes his candidacy seriously.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

But but he's a socialistic libertarian! Lol. :roll:

:lol: I know, right? Appeal to imaginary eschaton is obvious. Sanders' defenders may try to claim that he wants this mythical society where nobody rules anyone else, but in Real Life he is only too happy for the current Federal Government to do that ruling on "nobody's" behalf.

It's like taking the formulation that "If men were angels, we would need no government", and then excusing whatever you wanted to do with government by exclaiming "Oh but I would prefer that men be angels!" Well thanks, jack, for that incredible insight. :roll:
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

Uh, that would be you. Nice try though.

No comment on CPUSA and CPC being named as it's "allies in congress"? :roll:

"I know you are but what am i" approach? Lol

What's to comment on? They like something he did isn't even remotely close to Bernie being allied with them. If that's how you view the world then I'll align the GOP with the American fascist movement. Your logic makes no sense.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

I get it. I know people that are already "all in" for Hillary. Ive asked why in the past but I have stopped. "Deer in the headlights" is not a very becoming fashion statement on people.

I don't know why people seem to believe that they have to have an answer when asked. They really don't know and they should say so instead of pretending to be in the loop when they are not.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

I don't know why people seem to believe that they have to have an answer when asked. They really don't know and they should say so instead of pretending to be in the loop when they are not.

Ya gotta admit though...it would be nice if people acgtually knew what they were voting for and why. Kinda explains very clearly where we are at as a country with regard to our politicians.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

I havent watched the video yet so maybe it explains it better

but just on the thread title . . . .the GOP doesnt have family values and never did . . . ever :shrug:

now im not saying GOPers dont have family values . . .of course some do

Im simply pointing out the fact that family values belong to all of us and the GOP never owned them, were responsible for them, were good factual examples of them or the champion force of them . . . no party was . . . .
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

I havent watched the video yet so maybe it explains it better

but just on the thread title . . . .the GOP doesnt have family values and never did . . . ever :shrug:

now im not saying GOPers dont have family values . . .of course some do

Im simply pointing out the fact that family values belong to all of us and the GOP never owned them, were responsible for them, were good factual examples of them or the champion force of them . . . no party was . . . .

This is true. But it's a political battle of what's NOT said when someone invents this kind of talking point. "We are the party of Family Values" is not raising them up as much as it is them saying "That party over there does not have family values." It's ****ty. It's stupid. It's politics. And it works unfortunately.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

To be honest I'd probably prefer Sanders over Hillary even though Sanders is much more liberal.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

"I know you are but what am i" approach? Lol

What's to comment on? They like something he did isn't even remotely close to Bernie being allied with them. If that's how you view the world then I'll align the GOP with the American fascist movement. Your logic makes no sense.

Yeah, speaking of not even close. Just because Sanders doesn't openly ally himself with the CPUSA, doesn't mean they aren't on the same page on many issues. Referring to it's "allies in congress" is a little more than just simply agreeing on one issue. But you already knew that.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

Yeah, speaking of not even close. Just because Sanders doesn't openly ally himself with the CPUSA, doesn't mean they aren't on the same page on many issues. Referring to it's "allies in congress" is a little more than just simply agreeing on one issue. But you already knew that.

Yes. You like food. So did Hitler. You are playing a really obtuse game in attempts to not debate as much as sling feces. Thanks for playing.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

Yes. You like food. So did Hitler. You are playing a really obtuse game in attempts to not debate as much as sling feces. Thanks for playing.

You are the only one playing games. Your lame attempts at obfuscation don't hide the fact that Sanders is considered an ally of the Communist Party USA. Thank YOU for playing.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

You are the only one playing games. Your lame attempts at obfuscation don't hide the fact that Sanders is considered an ally of the Communist Party USA. Thank YOU for playing.

And Ron Paul is like by the American Fascist Movement. I would never say that Ron Paul is a Fascist or related to them. That would be very very stupid.

Now I invite you to debate issues more specifically or you can continue with the broad labeling that doesn't suit any conversation well.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

And Ron Paul is like by the American Fascist Movement. I would never say that Ron Paul is a Fascist or related to them. That would be very very stupid.

Now I invite you to debate issues more specifically or you can continue with the broad labeling that doesn't suit any conversation well.

Bernie is a commie, get over it.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders wants to take back “family values” from the GOP

The war on poverty has been an abject failure on every level. I'm not sure how to solve it (I've tossed out the idea of eliminating all entitlements, and providing a small guaranteed income for all, which (along with single-payer healthcare) would provide all the social safety I think I'd ever care to supply my fellow Americans while still providing incentive to better oneself (unlike means-tested benefits). I'd dump the whole current means-tested entitlement systems, ideally.

there is no way to solve it. the fact is there will always be rich people there will always be poor people. the object is to do the best for the most people.
I don't like mean tested entitlements either it prevents people from getting ahead. it keeps them on the system and makes it harder to get off.

Barring the above, I see no reason entitlements such as welfare & disability couldn't be curtailed substantially; strictly from anecdotal experience, a huge number of the recipients I know are abusing the system - easily 1/2 of the one's I know, maybe more (I know this is not a statistical sample - but I'd cut them drastically).

they are drastically abused systems. they need reformed in how they function not gutted.

If we were to cut the current entitlements, along with closing some of the tax loopholes I listed in my prior post, I'd like us to then zero-out the deficit and use the rest for sensible social programs that are not means tested, along with infrastructure improvement. I'd also toss a few obligatory bucks at the national debt, just to look good.

I prefer gutting the entire tax system in general and starting over. with something more simply less complicated. promote business growth and function while paying down the deficit and debt by getting rid of the 500+b dollars in government waste every year.

As to single-payer healthcare, I'm not sure where your figures of 40-60% "tax" come from, but we are already have 43% of our fellow Americans being provided single-payer healthcare in this country (Medicare, MedicAid, Disability) - I'd extend it (MediCare) for all in a sliding fashion over quite a few years so as to not shock the system. I'd keep our current private provider system, so most accurately we'd have a single-payer/private provider system. As to costs, they'd have to be curtailed absolutely - I believe this is the key. Other countries have done this, and quite a few have better healthcare outcomes than we currently do, and they have lower costs as well.

I do believe that combined cost is all taxes together. so any federal income, any healthcare tax and then there is usually a VAT tax on top of it.

as I told helix if you want LCD healthcare then be my guest and you can get LCD healthcare. you can wait a year for an MRI or 6 months to see a specialist or you can
wait months to see a GP.

then there is the fact that the government won't cover everything which means you then need private insurance to cover what they won't.
then of course if you make so much money you pay double what someone else will pay simply because you make more.

me I prefer access to a doctor whenever I need it.

they have lower costs because we do most of the work here. US does much of the medical RnD.
also you can't get all the medicine that you can get here in the US. their governments restrict what drugs you can get and have access to if they cover them at all.

yep curtailing costs is key but a single payer doesn't curb costs it just changes who is paying for it. it doesn't make it cheaper.
I prefer something similar to what Singapore has. their system work and their system works well and their government spends way less on it.

what you have to wonder if why a hospital will advertise a CT for 2000 dollar your insurance it is 1000 but if you pay cash it is 250 dollars.
cash is king and cash is cheaper. most hospitals will give a 80-90% discount up front if you can pay in cash no insurance required.

that is what we need to look at. there are doctors that accept only cash. they charge 50 dollars per adult 20 dollars per kid and about 100 per elderly a month for full access to their offices.

if the government allows for a 5000 healthcare credit that would cover a family of 4 for a year. that doesn't include what you put in and what your company will contribute as well.
Medical Bills Going Down If You Pay Cash

we can do away with insurance all together pay cash and get the best price possible.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders wants to take back “family values” from the GOP

God help us if this piece of crap ever gets in office. He will finish us off, after the current disaster gets out of office.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

To be honest I'd probably prefer Sanders over Hillary even though Sanders is much more liberal.

Sanders in the White House and republicans in congress should work just fine.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

Sanders in the White House and republicans in congress should work just fine.


I'm a big fan of gridlock. With our propensity to gravitate toward the Unitary President however, as we've seen recently, the office of president has become too powerful.
 
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