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Bernie Sanders wants to take back “family values” from the GOP

Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

Like I said earlier it's more of a parental leave so either or could be home with the child. So that would not benefit an employer to play the gender card when considering hiring.

:shrug: Sanders said "woman" and it was described as Maternity Leave. If it's both parents, then its effects are reduced.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

It still works fine with the right protections in place

Again, you are refusing to define "works fine". The stats say that in the real world even when there are legal protections, that the result is reduced income and job opportunities for women. Just as employers aren't legally allowed to refuse to hire you on account of your reserve affiliation but.... find that.... they just don't think you'd be a good "fit"......
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

:shrug: Sanders said "woman" and it was described as Maternity Leave. If it's both parents, then its effects are reduced.

From his site:

Join Bernie Sanders to Support 12 Weeks of Paid Family Leave

The United States is the only developed nation in the world without guaranteed, paid parental leave. A democratic, civilized society should guarantee these benefits for the working families and middle class of our country.

That's why Bernie Sanders supports 12 weeks of paid family leave. Say you support paid leave for mothers and fathers too.​
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

:lol: cmon people, FFS. I'm supposed to be the one arguing for legislation that leaves women barefoot in the kitchen with the younguns, remember?
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

It fills my heart with warmth to see so many likely Democrat voters eager to flush their vote down the toilet. Go Bernie!
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

From his site:

Join Bernie Sanders to Support 12 Weeks of Paid Family Leave

The United States is the only developed nation in the world without guaranteed, paid parental leave. A democratic, civilized society should guarantee these benefits for the working families and middle class of our country.

That's why Bernie Sanders supports 12 weeks of paid family leave. Say you support paid leave for mothers and fathers too.​

:shrug: then the relative effects are reduced to the extent that men take full advantage of that 12 weeks at the same rate as women. Which they are (realistically) unlikely to do. It becomes additionally ageist in its effects.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

It fills my heart with warmth to see so many likely Democrat voters eager to flush their vote down the toilet. Go Bernie!

Um... how is exactly would it be flushing one's vote down the toilet? He's in the primary... not the general soooo... what's your point again?
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

Parenthetically, I would like to bring it to everyone's attention that at least we are discussing it, thanks to Sanders. It's the kind of discussion we should be having about our own self governance. It is healthy for America to have these kinds of discussions. This is what campaigning should be about - but rarely is anymore.

I appreciate it and I appreciate Sanders because of it. He is actually inviting American voters to think. Sadly, that is a departure from the norm.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

Bam!

I like this guy!
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

Um... how is exactly would it be flushing one's vote down the toilet? He's in the primary... not the general soooo... what's your point again?


It is obvious that he doesn't have a point.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

Ah yes, and between the employees whom the law is for or the government which will be passing this law, which one of those two actors will be picking up the tab for the lost productivity, any required salary for the employee, etc?

If, as you say, it's not a third party, like, for example, an employer.



Ah. So it would be a third party.

To an extent, yes. If you'll look through some of the data I quickly posted above, for example, you will note that two studies found that basically employers took it out of women's wages, and one found that they took it out of women's wages and the resources dedicated to developing them for promotion.

So, indirectly you could say that it's women who have to pay the cost... I suppose.

...But that would sort of be the exact point I am making....



:shrug: that it makes it more difficult for women to enter the workforce and get promoted once they are there is the argument against that I am aware of. When you raise the price of something, you usually lower relative demand for it.



He described it as "a woman after having a baby". If he means both parents, well, then that would be a different kettle of fish.

You are so focused on the gender issue(despite him saying "all Americans", which does include men), that you never actually addressed anything I said except from that slant. SO let's look at your assumption, which is false. Source 1: Sanders Announces Family Values Agenda - Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont

Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) today outlined a family values agenda, a package of legislation to provide paid family and medical leave, paid sick leave and paid vacation. “When you look at what other wealthy countries are doing, what you find is that the United States of America is the only advanced economy that does not guarantee its workers some form of paid family leave, paid sick time or paid vacation time. In other words, when it comes to basic workplace protections and family benefits, workers in every other major industrialized country in the world get a better deal than workers in the United States. That is wrong,” Sanders said.

Source 2: http://www.sanders.senate.gov/download/family-and-medical-insurance-leave-act?inline=file

For formatting reasons(I hate having to take out the 1000000 line breaks those things put in) I am not quoting the bill he cosponsered and referenced in his speech, but it is clearly family leave, not maternity leave.

So can we talk about what he is really proposing instead of what you assume he is proposing?
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

Parenthetically, I would like to bring it to everyone's attention that at least we are discussing it, thanks to Sanders. It's the kind of discussion we should be having about our own self governance. It is healthy for America to have these kinds of discussions. This is what campaigning should be about - but rarely is anymore.

I appreciate it and I appreciate Sanders because of it. He is actually inviting American voters to think. Sadly, that is a departure from the norm.

This will warm your heart a touch if you didn't see this:


This shocked even the Bernie camp in that they didn't have any reps there working the crowd.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

Um... how is exactly would it be flushing one's vote down the toilet? He's in the primary... not the general soooo... what's your point again?

The scenario I see playing out is this:

Bernie gets a substantial turn out in the primaries but still falls a bit short of Hilary who gets the party nomination.

Bernie then assumes that he can do on a national level what he did in Vermont based on his surprising appeal in the primaries. Sanders decides to run as an Independent in the general election just as he does in Vermont, effectively Ross Perot-ing Hilary's presidential bid.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

The scenario I see playing out is this:

Bernie gets a substantial turn out in the primaries but still falls a bit short of Hilary who gets the party nomination.

Bernie then assumes that he can do on a national level what he did in Vermont based on his surprising appeal in the primaries. Sanders decides to run as an Independent in the general election just as he does in Vermont, effectively Ross Perot-ing Hilary's presidential bid.

Sorry to burst your bubble...

If Bernie Sanders Runs For President, It Won’t Be as an Independent: “I will not be a spoiler”

To the dismay some idealists, Sanders rejected the idea of running for president as an independent. “No matter what I do, I will not be a spoiler,” Sanders said. “I will not play that role in helping to elect some right-wing Republican as President of the United States.”
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

Bernie says a lot of good stuff, it definitely outnumbers the meh stuff he pushes, though he loses me when I heard about him wanting a $15 dollar minimum wage and free public university -- I could run with the first two years being free given the core curriculum crap we all have to deal with though.

He knows he can't win the big show, but he'll bring serious issues up and smack around a number of the better funded, yet comparatively poorly spoken candidates running against him. Really hope he pushes on the infrastructure issue.

I never planned on voting for him though, but that's another story.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

:shrug: then the relative effects are reduced to the extent that men take full advantage of that 12 weeks at the same rate as women. Which they are (realistically) unlikely to do. It becomes additionally ageist in its effects.

Wow, talk about being reduced to grasping at straws...
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

Wow, talk about being reduced to grasping at straws...

:raises eyebrow: huh? What part of then the relative effects are reduced to the extent that men take full advantage of that 12 weeks at the same rate as women flew past you?

I agree the effects are reduced. But Employers make rational decisions. In countries with maternity leave, we see them doing so. They will continue to do so. See that earlier bit about employers in Britain? They have parental leave for both genders there, too. And the effect is problematic for women.

As I said, I'm on the fence on this - I agree with Sanders it's a "pro family" policy. It's also a "pro-baby" policy, and I'm one of those weirdo's who thinks that, if we are going to depend on future generations to support us, we should remember to have them. I am unsure if it's a "pro family earning a good income" policy, and I think it has unfair unintended consequences. Namely:


FT_gender1223.png


Pew Research and the OECD comes to the same conclusion that cpwill does:

...countries that offer more liberal parental leave policies have higher pay gaps among men and women ages 30 to 34, according to analyses of 16 countries conducted by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. OECD theorizes that this link may be driven by the fact that women are more likely than men to actually use their parental leave, and that time out of the workforce is associated with lower wages....
 
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Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

I didn't say it doesn't work - I said it has negative effects on women in the workplace, as it makes them a greater risk and more expensive to hire, train, and promote.

But since it's good for people and for society, maybe we should stop thinking of everything in terms of amassing more money. Greed is bad for people and society. This is a demonstration of that. The problem isn't women or babies or anything like that. It's capitalism, where we value money over people. What you're implying is that we can't ever have real gender equality in a capitalist system, and you're right.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

Bernie says a lot of good stuff, it definitely outnumbers the meh stuff he pushes, though he loses me when I heard about him wanting a $15 dollar minimum wage and free public university -- I could run with the first two years being free given the core curriculum crap we all have to deal with though.

He knows he can't win the big show, but he'll bring serious issues up and smack around a number of the better funded, yet comparatively poorly spoken candidates running against him. Really hope he pushes on the infrastructure issue.

I never planned on voting for him though, but that's another story.

Bernie Sanders: 'Don't underestimate me'

The odds might be against Sen. Bernie Sanders’s presidential bid, but he has a message for those who question his bid: “Don’t underestimate me."

“I fully concede that I get into this race as a major underdog. No question about it. I mean, Hillary Clinton is known by 95 percent of the American people. And clearly, in terms of money, I will be very, very, very heavily outspent,” the Vermont independent said in an interview with CNBC.

“Don't underestimate me. We're going to do better than people think. And I think we got a shot to win this thing.”​
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

A Bernie Sanders presidency would be something to see that's for sure.

It would be nice to see the Kochtopus and all dark money fail.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

Bernie Sanders: 'Don't underestimate me'

The odds might be against Sen. Bernie Sanders’s presidential bid, but he has a message for those who question his bid: “Don’t underestimate me."

“I fully concede that I get into this race as a major underdog. No question about it. I mean, Hillary Clinton is known by 95 percent of the American people. And clearly, in terms of money, I will be very, very, very heavily outspent,” the Vermont independent said in an interview with CNBC.

“Don't underestimate me. We're going to do better than people think. And I think we got a shot to win this thing.”​
It's just realistic to not see him winning, but I respect his tenacity.

Do you honestly think he could win the nomination?
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

It's just realistic to not see him winning, but I respect his tenacity.

Do you honestly think he could win the nomination?

Yes. Just as Obama did. It seems the same appeal starts with dems as "Jesus just stop telling me I have to vote for Hillary because there is no way she can lose" which is the same exact thing Obama was facing against her. People resent the whole "its a forgone conclusion" before they vote and Obama proved that.

Sanders' definitely an underdog, but I think he's a lot less of a long shot than people are making it out to be at this point.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

This will warm your heart a touch if you didn't see this:


This shocked even the Bernie camp in that they didn't have any reps there working the crowd.

My bias is that there is not one candidate in the GOP mob that I would even slightly consider and Hillary is nothing but lipstick on the same pig. I like Webb but he's doing and saying nothing. O'Malley I know very little about. Sanders came charging in and took probably a lot of people by surprise.

I've always liked Sanders for the issues he's supported. I like that he is a serious guy who ain't no dummy and he isn't afraid to take a position. But, I didn't see him having much of a shot against the Clinton machine. Face it, Bernie Sanders is a bigger threat to the powers that be than Hillary Clinton. They own Hillary. Suddenly candidates are facing a man who is credible. Bernie has gotten traction where Hillary is out there like everyone else checking off speech points.

Sooner or later the old campaign template and bull**** machine that all candidates have used for so long had to become road worn and trite. People are not as stupid as most candidates believe they are. It's hard times and people are reluctant to play long on hope. People are tired of constant war and tired of their constant loss of rights, tired of stale jobs and tired of being screwed by business and government. They can't be shucked and jived as easily as they once were. They are leery. To my thinking Sanders, so far, appeals more to intellect and more people are ready to listen. Hillary, like everyone else, is simply trying to outspend and out lie.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

It really is amazing that most of our food service workers don't get sick days. Isn't that a public health issue?
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform



And that my friends is how it's done. Don't ever concede BS talking points put forth by your opponents... own it yourself.


yep. everyone should have time off of work to raise kids and do things like take a vacation. or to be sick. or to just not work for ten ****ing minutes of your life. employers should realize this, but most of them don't or can't, because no one else is required to do it. if they act like human beings and do nice things for their employees, they get beaten by their competitors who have no consciences. and i abso ****ing lately agree that sick people should not be forced to come in and make food. that is completely ridiculous. i have seen people who look like they should be at an urgent care clinic making my sandwich. not because they want to, but because they have to, and because the board of health doesn't shut the ****ing place down for forcing sick workers to make sandwiches. it's ****ing stupid, and it needs to change.
 
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