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Bernie Sanders wants to take back “family values” from the GOP

Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform



And that my friends is how it's done. Don't ever concede BS talking points put forth by your opponents... own it yourself.


Hm. Firstly, its' interesting to see how the people he thinks should be paying for all these family benefits are not the families, or even the taxpayers, but third parties (it's always easier, I suppose, to sell something, when someone else has to pay for it). I'd take Sanders more seriously on this if he was willing to gouge his own ox on it.

I'm on the fence about maternity leave. We need more children being born, that's true. It is indeed good for the women, good for the babies, and good for the families. Mandating maternity leave, however, unfairly advantages women in the workplace, as it means that hiring a woman comes with greater costs than hiring a man, and it means that investing time, training, promotion, etc. in a man is likely to have higher returns than investing those same resources in a woman. I'm all for women staying home with kids when they are little (I think kids need a parent at that age), but that still strikes me as somewhat unfair.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

Hm. Firstly, its' interesting to see how the people he thinks should be paying for all these family benefits are not the families, or even the taxpayers, but third parties (it's always easier, I suppose, to sell something, when someone else has to pay for it). I'd take Sanders more seriously on this if he was willing to gouge his own ox on it.

I'm on the fence about maternity leave. We need more children being born, that's true. It is indeed good for the women, good for the babies, and good for the families. Mandating maternity leave, however, unfairly advantages women in the workplace, as it means that hiring a woman comes with greater costs than hiring a man, and it means that investing time, training, promotion, etc. in a man is likely to have higher returns than investing those same resources in a woman. I'm all for women staying home with kids when they are little (I think kids need a parent at that age), but that still strikes me as somewhat unfair.

I believe what he's getting behind on Gillibrand's proposal is parental leave. Not a women's only maternity leave.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

I believe what he's getting behind on Gillibrand's proposal is parental leave. Not a women's only maternity leave.

From the Article:

...“He then outlined three family-oriented policies that would be at the center of his “Family Values Plan”: making sure that all American have 12 weeks of paid maternity leave, paid sick leave and 10 days a year of paid vacation time....
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

Hell I'm on the Bernie bandwagon and I am Canadian! The points he brings up are no-brainers to me. I just learned a few months ago that the US does not have a national parental leave time law and I couldn't believe it. Here in Canada, we get one year.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

Hm. Firstly, its' interesting to see how the people he thinks should be paying for all these family benefits are not the families, or even the taxpayers, but third parties (it's always easier, I suppose, to sell something, when someone else has to pay for it). I'd take Sanders more seriously on this if he was willing to gouge his own ox on it.

I'm on the fence about maternity leave. We need more children being born, that's true. It is indeed good for the women, good for the babies, and good for the families. Mandating maternity leave, however, unfairly advantages women in the workplace, as it means that hiring a woman comes with greater costs than hiring a man, and it means that investing time, training, promotion, etc. in a man is likely to have higher returns than investing those same resources in a woman. I'm all for women staying home with kids when they are little (I think kids need a parent at that age), but that still strikes me as somewhat unfair.

The rest of the world does it... so why do you not think it does not work? We have laws here protecting women against discrimination.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

The only candidate so far who is addressing real issues and offering real solutions is Bernie Sanders. God, the guy is a breath of fresh air. Who doesn't support the family values Sanders is talking about?

Every time I hear him talk I agree with him.

Go Bernie!
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

From the Article:

Yeah that's yahoo... but watch the video. He spells it out more than what they apparently wrote up. I also went and read about Gillibrand's views which is who Sanders is referring to about family leave...

Kirsten believes that it is critical to have a paid family and medical leave program that helps families after the birth of a newborn baby or when there is a seriously ill child, spouse, or parent. She supports helping states implement a paid leave program. She also supports The Federal Employees Paid Parental Leave Act that would provide federal employees with four weeks of paid parental leave after the birth or adoption of a child.​
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

The rest of the world does it... so why do you not think it does not work? We have laws here protecting women against discrimination.

I didn't say it doesn't work - I said it has negative effects on women in the workplace, as it makes them a greater risk and more expensive to hire, train, and promote.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

The only candidate so far who is addressing real issues and offering real solutions is Bernie Sanders. God, the guy is a breath of fresh air. Who doesn't support the family values Sanders is talking about?

Every time I hear him talk I agree with him.

Go Bernie!

Here... have another:

Bernie Sanders Takes It to Wall Street With Financial Transactions Tax

Last week, Bernie Sanders, the Senator from Vermont and only announced challenger to Hillary Clinton for the Democratic nomination, took a strong stand for everyday people. He proposed a financial transactions tax (FTT), effectively a Wall Street sales tax, and to use the revenue to make public colleges tuition free.​
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

A Bernie Sanders presidency would be something to see that's for sure.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

I didn't say it doesn't work - I said it has negative effects on women in the workplace, as it makes them a greater risk and more expensive to hire, train, and promote.

Not if you have the proper laws in place.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

Hell I'm on the Bernie bandwagon and I am Canadian! The points he brings up are no-brainers to me. I just learned a few months ago that the US does not have a national parental leave time law and I couldn't believe it. Here in Canada, we get one year.

:shrug: as a "good for babies" policy I understand the benefit for that. As someone who thinks you have to also understand unintended consequences, I also know that introducing that here will result in many fewer work opportunities for women. There's a reason if you're in the Reserves or the Guard you spent the previous 10 years carefully leaving that off resume's.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

Here... have another:

Bernie Sanders Takes It to Wall Street With Financial Transactions Tax

Last week, Bernie Sanders, the Senator from Vermont and only announced challenger to Hillary Clinton for the Democratic nomination, took a strong stand for everyday people. He proposed a financial transactions tax (FTT), effectively a Wall Street sales tax, and to use the revenue to make public colleges tuition free.​

I've seen that one. Once again Sanders makes sense. Meantime Hillary is riding around in her van, faking a Southern accent and saying not a lot of the things that have no real value. Sanders continues to hit them out of the park.

Hillary and GOP candidates don't want to debate him.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

:shrug: as a "good for babies" policy I understand the benefit for that. As someone who thinks you have to also understand unintended consequences, I also know that introducing that here will result in many fewer work opportunities for women. There's a reason if you're in the Reserves or the Guard you spent the previous 10 years carefully leaving that off resume's.

When I went into the reserves at 18 I had that all wrong. I thought, "well hey... now I have marketable skills and some training... employers are gonna love me." Didn't really work out that way.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

:shrug: as a "good for babies" policy I understand the benefit for that. As someone who thinks you have to also understand unintended consequences, I also know that introducing that here will result in many fewer work opportunities for women. There's a reason if you're in the Reserves or the Guard you spent the previous 10 years carefully leaving that off resume's.


Are you saying that it doesn't work in Canada and that it is detrimental to Canadian women?
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

Not if you have the proper laws in place.

Sure, sure. These are the laws enforced by the police with the special mind-reading powers? I couldn't speak to Canada, but In Britain:

A third of managers would rather employ a man in his 20s or 30s over a woman of the same age for fear of maternity leave, according to a new study. A survey of 500 managers by law firm Slater & Gordon showed that more than 40% admitted they are generally wary of hiring a woman of childbearing age, while a similar number would be wary of hiring a woman who has already had a child or hiring a mother for a senior role.

A quarter said they would rather hire a man to get around issues of maternity leave and child care when a woman does return to work, with 44% saying the financial costs to their business because of maternity leave are a significant concern....

Mandated Maternity Leave Reduces The Likelihood That Women Will Get Promoted And Increases Gender Wage Gaps.


Nor is it just conservatives saying this sort of thing


Again, it is, absolutely, good for families. It just also stacks the deck against women in the workplace.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

I've seen that one. Once again Sanders makes sense. Meantime Hillary is riding around in her van, faking a Southern accent and saying not a lot of the things that have no real value. Sanders continues to hit them out of the park.

Hillary and GOP candidates don't want to debate him.

Yeah he keeps pushing for debates and she is ignoring him. The CPD (commission on presidential debates) is basically a front-runner protector. They've put in place no compete clauses that say if you debate outside of the CPD sanctioned debates, you won't be uninvited from their debates. This goes for GOP and Dem candidates. They are protecting front runners from being exposed.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

When I went into the reserves at 18 I had that all wrong. I thought, "well hey... now I have marketable skills and some training... employers are gonna love me." Didn't really work out that way.

So now take that and instead of it being you in the reserves (which you can get out of), make it you being a woman of child-bearing age (which you can only age out of). The impact on employers is comparable and so their response will be the same. :shrug:
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

So now take that and instead of it being you in the reserves (which you can get out of), make it you being a woman of child-bearing age (which you can only age out of). The impact on employers is comparable and so their response will be the same. :shrug:

It still works fine with the right protections in place. Which is why we are the only industrialized nation that doesn't do this. Just like how laws protected me in my service that assured that they had to have my job waiting for me when I got back from Desert Storm.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

Are you saying that it doesn't work in Canada and that it is detrimental to Canadian women?

No one is saying it "doesn't work". I said I'm on the fence about it. It does work to create maternity leave, which is it's purpose. It also stacks the deck in the workplace against women, which is an unintended consequence. So they trade (or, rather, we trade on their behalf without giving individual women a choice in the matter) better family time for reduced job opportunities.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

Hm. Firstly, its' interesting to see how the people he thinks should be paying for all these family benefits are not the families, or even the taxpayers, but third parties (it's always easier, I suppose, to sell something, when someone else has to pay for it). I'd take Sanders more seriously on this if he was willing to gouge his own ox on it.

I'm on the fence about maternity leave. We need more children being born, that's true. It is indeed good for the women, good for the babies, and good for the families. Mandating maternity leave, however, unfairly advantages women in the workplace, as it means that hiring a woman comes with greater costs than hiring a man, and it means that investing time, training, promotion, etc. in a man is likely to have higher returns than investing those same resources in a woman. I'm all for women staying home with kids when they are little (I think kids need a parent at that age), but that still strikes me as somewhat unfair.

It isn't really "third party paying for it", it would simply be a mandated part of any compensation package for workers. Employers would be able to make up any cost from other parts of the compensation package. I am not saying it is a good idea, I am not sure but kinda unsold at this point. I would like to hear what the arguments against it are at the very least before I would make up my mind.

And while he calls it maternity leave, I think he intends for both parents from the way he words it.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

It still works fine with the right protections in place.

:shrug: define "work fine". If by "work fine" you mean that it doesn't push women fully out of the workforce and allows them to have better family time at critical junctures, I agree. If by "works fine", however, you mean that employers don't make rational decisions about the relative costs of hiring men v women....

Well, maybe in Magicland where everyone follows the intent rather than the letter of the law, perhaps. In the rest of the real world (feel free to go research this yourself or click on the sources I gave you) not so much.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

:shrug: define "work fine". If by "work fine" you mean that it doesn't push women fully out of the workforce and allows them to have better family time at critical junctures, I agree. If by "works fine", however, you mean that employers don't make rational decisions about the relative costs of hiring men v women....

Well, maybe in Magicland where everyone follows the intent rather than the letter of the law, perhaps. In the rest of the real world (feel free to go research this yourself or click on the sources I gave you) not so much.

Like I said earlier it's more of a parental leave so either or could be home with the child. So that would not benefit an employer to play the gender card when considering hiring.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

It isn't really "third party paying for it", it would simply be a mandated part of any compensation package for workers.

Ah yes, and between the employees whom the law is for or the government which will be passing this law, which one of those two actors will be picking up the tab for the lost productivity, any required salary for the employee, etc?

If, as you say, it's not a third party, like, for example, an employer.

Employers would be able to make up any cost from other parts of the compensation package.

Ah. So it would be a third party.

To an extent, yes. If you'll look through some of the data I quickly posted above, for example, you will note that two studies found that basically employers took it out of women's wages, and one found that they took it out of women's wages and the resources dedicated to developing them for promotion.

So, indirectly you could say that it's women who have to pay the cost... I suppose.

...But that would sort of be the exact point I am making....

I am not saying it is a good idea, I am not sure but kinda unsold at this point. I would like to hear what the arguments against it are at the very least before I would make up my mind.

:shrug: that it makes it more difficult for women to enter the workforce and get promoted once they are there is the argument against that I am aware of. When you raise the price of something, you usually lower relative demand for it.

And while he calls it maternity leave, I think he intends for both parents from the way he words it.

He described it as "a woman after having a baby". If he means both parents, well, then that would be a different kettle of fish.
 
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