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Thread: Bernie Sanders wants to take back “family values” from the GOP

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    Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

    Quote Originally Posted by Risky Thicket View Post
    Are you saying that it doesn't work in Canada and that it is detrimental to Canadian women?
    No one is saying it "doesn't work". I said I'm on the fence about it. It does work to create maternity leave, which is it's purpose. It also stacks the deck in the workplace against women, which is an unintended consequence. So they trade (or, rather, we trade on their behalf without giving individual women a choice in the matter) better family time for reduced job opportunities.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

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    Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Hm. Firstly, its' interesting to see how the people he thinks should be paying for all these family benefits are not the families, or even the taxpayers, but third parties (it's always easier, I suppose, to sell something, when someone else has to pay for it). I'd take Sanders more seriously on this if he was willing to gouge his own ox on it.

    I'm on the fence about maternity leave. We need more children being born, that's true. It is indeed good for the women, good for the babies, and good for the families. Mandating maternity leave, however, unfairly advantages women in the workplace, as it means that hiring a woman comes with greater costs than hiring a man, and it means that investing time, training, promotion, etc. in a man is likely to have higher returns than investing those same resources in a woman. I'm all for women staying home with kids when they are little (I think kids need a parent at that age), but that still strikes me as somewhat unfair.
    It isn't really "third party paying for it", it would simply be a mandated part of any compensation package for workers. Employers would be able to make up any cost from other parts of the compensation package. I am not saying it is a good idea, I am not sure but kinda unsold at this point. I would like to hear what the arguments against it are at the very least before I would make up my mind.

    And while he calls it maternity leave, I think he intends for both parents from the way he words it.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

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    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    It still works fine with the right protections in place.
    define "work fine". If by "work fine" you mean that it doesn't push women fully out of the workforce and allows them to have better family time at critical junctures, I agree. If by "works fine", however, you mean that employers don't make rational decisions about the relative costs of hiring men v women....

    Well, maybe in Magicland where everyone follows the intent rather than the letter of the law, perhaps. In the rest of the real world (feel free to go research this yourself or click on the sources I gave you) not so much.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

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    Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    define "work fine". If by "work fine" you mean that it doesn't push women fully out of the workforce and allows them to have better family time at critical junctures, I agree. If by "works fine", however, you mean that employers don't make rational decisions about the relative costs of hiring men v women....

    Well, maybe in Magicland where everyone follows the intent rather than the letter of the law, perhaps. In the rest of the real world (feel free to go research this yourself or click on the sources I gave you) not so much.
    Like I said earlier it's more of a parental leave so either or could be home with the child. So that would not benefit an employer to play the gender card when considering hiring.
    “I’ve been around for a long time and it just seems that the economy does better under the Democrats than the Republicans.” -- Donald Trump

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    Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    It isn't really "third party paying for it", it would simply be a mandated part of any compensation package for workers.
    Ah yes, and between the employees whom the law is for or the government which will be passing this law, which one of those two actors will be picking up the tab for the lost productivity, any required salary for the employee, etc?

    If, as you say, it's not a third party, like, for example, an employer.

    Employers would be able to make up any cost from other parts of the compensation package.
    Ah. So it would be a third party.

    To an extent, yes. If you'll look through some of the data I quickly posted above, for example, you will note that two studies found that basically employers took it out of women's wages, and one found that they took it out of women's wages and the resources dedicated to developing them for promotion.

    So, indirectly you could say that it's women who have to pay the cost... I suppose.

    ...But that would sort of be the exact point I am making....

    I am not saying it is a good idea, I am not sure but kinda unsold at this point. I would like to hear what the arguments against it are at the very least before I would make up my mind.
    that it makes it more difficult for women to enter the workforce and get promoted once they are there is the argument against that I am aware of. When you raise the price of something, you usually lower relative demand for it.

    And while he calls it maternity leave, I think he intends for both parents from the way he words it.
    He described it as "a woman after having a baby". If he means both parents, well, then that would be a different kettle of fish.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

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    Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Like I said earlier it's more of a parental leave so either or could be home with the child. So that would not benefit an employer to play the gender card when considering hiring.
    Sanders said "woman" and it was described as Maternity Leave. If it's both parents, then its effects are reduced.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

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    Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    It still works fine with the right protections in place
    Again, you are refusing to define "works fine". The stats say that in the real world even when there are legal protections, that the result is reduced income and job opportunities for women. Just as employers aren't legally allowed to refuse to hire you on account of your reserve affiliation but.... find that.... they just don't think you'd be a good "fit"......
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

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    Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Sanders said "woman" and it was described as Maternity Leave. If it's both parents, then its effects are reduced.
    From his site:

    Join Bernie Sanders to Support 12 Weeks of Paid Family Leave

    The United States is the only developed nation in the world without guaranteed, paid parental leave. A democratic, civilized society should guarantee these benefits for the working families and middle class of our country.

    That's why Bernie Sanders supports 12 weeks of paid family leave. Say you support paid leave for mothers and fathers too.
    “I’ve been around for a long time and it just seems that the economy does better under the Democrats than the Republicans.” -- Donald Trump

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    Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

    cmon people, FFS. I'm supposed to be the one arguing for legislation that leaves women barefoot in the kitchen with the younguns, remember?
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

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    Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

    It fills my heart with warmth to see so many likely Democrat voters eager to flush their vote down the toilet. Go Bernie!
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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