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Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

Im guessing you might have been missing his point, which was essentially agreeing with you by being sarcastic. Ironically...CanadaJohn then agreed with YOU which makes this whole thing kind of a funny/tragic three ring circus.

Some people have nothing to say but say it anyway. I think that was the case.
 
It's impossible to know, from the video, what part the young man played in his own troubles in the jail. In each of the first two incidents I saw in the video, he said something to the guard and he also said something to one of the other inmates and then started the incident by punching another of the inmates in the face. Unless we know what he said, we can't know why he was attacked. And in the gang attack, he started the fight so he got what he deserved.

Secondly, I'd note that in the first incident, with the guards, all the guards who roughed him up were black. In the second incident, the two guards who protected him and got him to safety were white.

Thirdly, he was out of the jail for 2 and a half years before he killed himself - what happened both to him and for him in those intervening years between jail and death? Anyone know?

Finally, I'd say this video does nothing to support the "black lives matter" nonsense since I didn't see a single black person in the video who gave a **** about black life they were trying to end.

This video says more about blacks in America than it does about the American Justice System. Americans should be glad these less than humans are off the streets.

Just curious, if the video had a bunch of skinheads, it would say more about whites in America than the justice system?

And who are the "less than humans?" "Blacks in America" or violent individuals locked up. It's not clear from your statement which group we should be happy are locked up. I'm not sure of any "American" who is sad violent criminals are behind bars, but I don't actually care what color they are.
 
What makes no sense? He didn't post bond, spent three years in jail, never tried or convicted, spent 2 years in solitary of those 3. It doesn't have to "make sense," it's fact, what happened.

Clearly, you're correct. It's the inferences that are the problem, as initially provided in post 1 of this thread. We don't know the answers to the why for any of those facts you state. My comment "it makes no sense on its face" is in reference to the inferences, not the facts as presented.

As an example, it's assumed in the OP and by others that his spending 2 years in solitary confinement was a form of unwarranted punishment. Do we know that to be true? Could it be he was in solitary because of his own behaviour? Could it be he was in solitary for his own safety? We don't have the answers, at least not in this thread, yet it's assumed that the justice department was unfairly punishing him. That may be true, but it's not been proven.
 
I'm guessing, a city the size of New York has an abundance of bail bondsmen. If, as noted by Chase, the bail was $3500, that takes a personal note of about $350 plus fees to get the bail posted. Don't try to tell me that a family that cares about a "son" can't come up with $350 in the course of 3 years. I'm not buying it. And if a couple who apparently have fostered 25 children over the years can't come up with $350, they shouldn't be fostering children. It makes no sense on its face.

This is a constitutional issue here...3 years in jail without being tried for something isn't a "speedy trial" and the fact a bond was offered doesn't mean someone no longer has a right to a speedy trial.
 
Does every veteran of Iraq or Afghanistan commit suicide? No. So f'em all if they can't handle civilian life after combat. Right? It's either the soldiers' fault or their families, so there's no issue for anyone else to worry about.....
As more than half of the suicides in the Army today involve individuals that have NEVER deployed, you may be barking...but not up the right tree.
 
This is a constitutional issue here...3 years in jail without being tried for something isn't a "speedy trial" and the fact a bond was offered doesn't mean someone no longer has a right to a speedy trial.
He was offered on two seperate occasions the opportunity to leave jail with time served while awaiting trial. He said "I'm good" and opted to stay in jail. That doesnt include the numerous plea bargains he was offered.
 
Just curious, there are perhaps 10s of thousands of vets suffering PTSD and other mental illnesses long (years!!) after they were in Iraq/Afghanistan. Suicide among returning vets, along with substance abuse, depression, etc. is a serious problem. I guess you'll blame the combat veterans, too, when they kill themselves, tell the family it was their fault for not taking better care of their veteran spouse, or their husband/wife was just a weak loser? Yeah, right...

It's always shocking how misinformed the American public is about mental health issues.

I'll bite - do you have any statistical data that shows the incidence of PTSD among teens who are jailed who commit suicide once released? How about just any age person who spends time in jail and is released? We have statistics for vets, so I see the correlation there, but considering the hundreds of thousands of teens jailed over the years, there must be studies that prove a high incidence of mental health issues for those freed once they leave the system. I'd love to see this data if you'd care to share it.

And yes, not just Americans are shockingly misinformed about mental health issues.
 
Yes but bondsmen typically don't return the money to you so that's taken as a total loss while posting bail yourself is just a temporary loss of money. So in a state where bondsmen are not legal it's easier to get help to make bail because the person knows (hopes) they are more likely to get the money back and may be easier to get a loan.

It's a bit of a wash. Though bondsmen require payment upfront, or surety, they can do so because it's a very high risk specialized loan. The chances of taking a loan on bail outside the bail bondsman structure are approaching nil. At the very least the interest on the loan would end up being more than the 10% the bondsmen charge.
 
Just curious, if the video had a bunch of skinheads, it would say more about whites in America than the justice system?

And who are the "less than humans?" "Blacks in America" or violent individuals locked up. It's not clear from your statement which group we should be happy are locked up. I'm not sure of any "American" who is sad violent criminals are behind bars, but I don't actually care what color they are.

I suppose you didn't actually look at the video or you wouldn't ask the questions. My comments are quite clear. The young black men who kicked, stomped on, beat, and otherwise attempted to hurt or kill the young man in question are the ones I was referring to as less than human. You are free to agree or disagree - makes no difference to me.
 
He was offered on two seperate occasions the opportunity to leave jail with time served while awaiting trial. He said "I'm good" and opted to stay in jail. That doesnt include the numerous plea bargains he was offered.

To get out for "time served" wouldn't he have to plead guilty? So the right to a speedy trial doesn't exist if you are given the opportunity to just plead guilty to a crime in order to get out?

Jeeze...spend three years in jail or leave early with a criminal record. Sounds just to me...
 
This is a constitutional issue here...3 years in jail without being tried for something isn't a "speedy trial" and the fact a bond was offered doesn't mean someone no longer has a right to a speedy trial.

Do you know how many continuances were requested by he and his defense? Do you know how many times he was set to go to trial and it was delayed by him? There was at least one witness, as I understand it, who identified him as the person who stole the backpack - could it be that he and his defense were hoping that this witness didn't show up at some point?

We can all speculate. Seems after 3 years the prosecution decided they had bigger fish to fry and cut him loose. Could be he and his defense were successful in waiting it out and avoiding trial. Cost him a lot, but that might have been his choice.
 
"...Since the 1970s, research has been amassed indicating that solitary confinement does alter neural and therefore psychological states. One study examining the development of psychopathologies found that those in solitary developed pathologies at higher rates than those in the general population (28% vs. 15%).

Another study of 20 prisoners who volunteered for a week of solitary confinement found that the prisoners exhibited decreased EEG activity, indicative of increased theta activity, which is related to stress, tension, and anxiety.
Prisoners in solitary confinement have been found to engage in self-mutilation at rates higher than the general population. Other research found that individuals released directly on to the streets had a higher recidivism rate compared to
those who spent time in the general population after solitary confinement (64 vs. 41%). Inmates released in Washington in the course of one year, controlling for criminal history and mental health, were more likely to commit felonies and crimes against individuals if they had been assigned to a supermax facility.

In 2005, forty-four prisoners in the California prison system committed suicide; 70% of whom were in solitary confinement. This has been a consistent trend. A national study of 401 jail suicides in 1986 found that two out of three were
among those held in a control unit. A 2007 study examining attempted suicide in the prison system identified solitary confinement as a major factor in suicidal ideation and suicide attempts...."
http://solitarywatch.com/wp-content...hological-effects-of-solitary-confinement.pdf The link has citations for the studies mentioned.
 
Just curious, there are perhaps 10s of thousands of vets suffering PTSD and other mental illnesses long (years!!) after they were in Iraq/Afghanistan. Suicide among returning vets, along with substance abuse, depression, etc. is a serious problem. I guess you'll blame the combat veterans, too, when they kill themselves, tell the family it was their fault for not taking better care of their veteran spouse, or their husband/wife was just a weak loser? Yeah, right...

It's always shocking how misinformed the American public is about mental health issues.

Nice try but wrong. The vets are harmed by their choice to serve us all. Thus when they return we have a duty to render them aid. These are the best of us and they should be preserved.

This knob was harmed by his choice of a criminal path. He's on his own to mitigate that harm. We owe him no duty.
 
Clearly, you're correct. It's the inferences that are the problem, as initially provided in post 1 of this thread. We don't know the answers to the why for any of those facts you state. My comment "it makes no sense on its face" is in reference to the inferences, not the facts as presented.

As an example, it's assumed in the OP and by others that his spending 2 years in solitary confinement was a form of unwarranted punishment. Do we know that to be true? Could it be he was in solitary because of his own behaviour? Could it be he was in solitary for his own safety? We don't have the answers, at least not in this thread, yet it's assumed that the justice department was unfairly punishing him. That may be true, but it's not been proven.

You find it somehow unbelievable the family couldn't come up with bail. They didn't. Obviously part of the issue with the criminal justice system is that if you DO have a supportive family, and/or money, you'd have spent a couple nights if that in jail. Poor people by the HUNDREDS in NY, and by the thousands across the country, spend years in jail with no trial effectively because they are poor. Sure, condemn the family. I don't know, but we can assume they're not winning parents of the year. Doesn't change what happened to the kid, or that the system failed him in a particularly catastrophic way.

And if he was in solitary confinement, an act we know causes serious, long term, mental problems for adults, for "his own safety" based on a charge of robbery of a damn backpack - jail is too dangerous for a 16 year old - then maybe that's a serious problem with the system? Yeah, that's part of the whole point. Also, too, the trial delays. Sure, maybe his "agents" or whatever you called them requested continuances because they've got 1,000 other defendants they're trying to weave through the system. Again, that's not the kid's problem - he's poor, and he's entitled to competent defense. He didn't get it.
 
You find it somehow unbelievable the family couldn't come up with bail. They didn't. Obviously part of the issue with the criminal justice system is that if you DO have a supportive family, and/or money, you'd have spent a couple nights if that in jail. Poor people by the HUNDREDS in NY, and by the thousands across the country, spend years in jail with no trial effectively because they are poor. Sure, condemn the family. I don't know, but we can assume they're not winning parents of the year. Doesn't change what happened to the kid, or that the system failed him in a particularly catastrophic way.

And if he was in solitary confinement, an act we know causes serious, long term, mental problems for adults, for "his own safety" based on a charge of robbery of a damn backpack - jail is too dangerous for a 16 year old - then maybe that's a serious problem with the system? Yeah, that's part of the whole point. Also, too, the trial delays. Sure, maybe his "agents" or whatever you called them requested continuances because they've got 1,000 other defendants they're trying to weave through the system. Again, that's not the kid's problem - he's poor, and he's entitled to competent defense. He didn't get it.

This all may be true, but it's speculation. Which is my point. I'm simply offering alternative scenarios that counter the prevailing assumptions. How do you know he was poor? As a 16 yr old, he's still a dependent. He was in foster care, as someone else noted, in a family that had fostered 25 other children. Does that sound like a poor family? Maybe the problem is with foster care/children's aid services, not the justice system. What happened to the family supports he generated as a foster child while he was in jail? That had to be about $350 a month, give or take.

It's easy to blame the system - just as easy as it is to blame police in every take-down situation. If he was treated so poorly by the system, why no attempts by he or his counsel to seek compensation in the 2 and a half years after he was released? As I said previously, his "loving" family is surely now lining up for a potential lottery win on his dead body.
 
Tell us why. Do you know, or are you just assuming the worst?

Why no bail? First time offense? Stealing a backpack and staying locked up for 3 years isn't normal, so what's the reason?

Is the justice system responsible for the seeming lack of care his family got him for the 2 and a half years he was out of jail after the charges were dropped? Does every juvenile who gets in trouble commit suicide when they get out?
Bail was quoted as $10K - His mother said she didn't have it.
 
I suppose you didn't actually look at the video or you wouldn't ask the questions. My comments are quite clear. The young black men who kicked, stomped on, beat, and otherwise attempted to hurt or kill the young man in question are the ones I was referring to as less than human. You are free to agree or disagree - makes no difference to me.

Your comment is clear. You said the video told us about "blacks in America." Not "violent criminals in Rikers who are black" or "blacks in that jail" but "blacks in AMERICA." Pretty broad category. But it told us nothing about "blacks" anywhere. It told us about something those individuals in the video, who I'm pretty sure we're ALL glad are in jail.

That's why several have commented on that post, and in response you said you didn't take back or weren't walking back any of your comments. OK, taking you at your word, drawing conclusions about "blacks in America" from that video of some small number of individual blacks in prison, caught on tape, is racist, so don't be surprised when you're called out on it.

If you didn't mean "blacks in America" but "the black individuals in that video" then you can say so and we'll all drop it.
 
Bail was quoted as $10K - His mother said she didn't have it.

Another poster quoted it as $3550 - I don't know one way or the other. Bail bondsmen will take about 10 cents on the dollar to post bail so that's anywhere from $350 to $1000. Mother didn't have it yet she was considered financially secure enough to have him as a foster child and have taken care of 25 others, supposedly. I can tell you that here in Canada nobody that poor is fostering children and they get pretty good supports from the system.
 
This video says more about blacks in America than it does about the American Justice System. Americans should be glad these less than humans are off the streets.

I am afraid this disgusting statement says more about your racism that is does blacks in America. :3oops:
 
To get out for "time served" wouldn't he have to plead guilty? So the right to a speedy trial doesn't exist if you are given the opportunity to just plead guilty to a crime in order to get out?

Jeeze...spend three years in jail or leave early with a criminal record. Sounds just to me...
No...he was offered bail options as well as plea bargains. Did you read the stories that were linked?

Ive not disagreed at all with the right to a speedy trial and have said that there are surely things that can and should be done different. I just actually bothered to objectively look at the story, read multiple accounts, and see both sides rather than just the one that supports my bent.
 
Bail was quoted as $10K - His mother said she didn't have it.

But could have gotten it some time in the three years. Heck, there are about a million advocacy groups for swift justice and the poor in NY she could have contacted for the money.
 
Your comment is clear. You said the video told us about "blacks in America." Not "violent criminals in Rikers who are black" or "blacks in that jail" but "blacks in AMERICA." Pretty broad category. But it told us nothing about "blacks" anywhere. It told us about something those individuals in the video, who I'm pretty sure we're ALL glad are in jail.

That's why several have commented on that post, and in response you said you didn't take back or weren't walking back any of your comments. OK, taking you at your word, drawing conclusions about "blacks in America" from that video of some small number of individual blacks in prison, caught on tape, is racist, so don't be surprised when you're called out on it.

If you didn't mean "blacks in America" but "the black individuals in that video" then you can say so and we'll all drop it.


Read my initial post. I clearly said that the video says more about blacks in America than it does about the American justice system and that those in the video were less than human and America should be glad their likes are locked up.

I stand by those words - they are true, if brutal.
 
I am afraid this disgusting statement says more about your racism that is does blacks in America. :3oops:
All things considered, CJ definitely could have expressed that sentiment better. He could have been far more selective rather than using the broad brush. I dont think the videos offered speaks to 'blacks in America'. But to those particular groups of people that happen to be black? The prison guards that beat him down, one of which was caught on video? The gang assaults that DID NOT STOP...even after guards were putting themselves between him and the gangs and even after the kid had been secured in a side room? Speaks pretty poorly of those groups.
 
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