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Thread: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

  1. #81
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    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    This is a constitutional issue here...3 years in jail without being tried for something isn't a "speedy trial" and the fact a bond was offered doesn't mean someone no longer has a right to a speedy trial.
    He was offered on two seperate occasions the opportunity to leave jail with time served while awaiting trial. He said "I'm good" and opted to stay in jail. That doesnt include the numerous plea bargains he was offered.

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    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Just curious, there are perhaps 10s of thousands of vets suffering PTSD and other mental illnesses long (years!!) after they were in Iraq/Afghanistan. Suicide among returning vets, along with substance abuse, depression, etc. is a serious problem. I guess you'll blame the combat veterans, too, when they kill themselves, tell the family it was their fault for not taking better care of their veteran spouse, or their husband/wife was just a weak loser? Yeah, right...

    It's always shocking how misinformed the American public is about mental health issues.
    I'll bite - do you have any statistical data that shows the incidence of PTSD among teens who are jailed who commit suicide once released? How about just any age person who spends time in jail and is released? We have statistics for vets, so I see the correlation there, but considering the hundreds of thousands of teens jailed over the years, there must be studies that prove a high incidence of mental health issues for those freed once they leave the system. I'd love to see this data if you'd care to share it.

    And yes, not just Americans are shockingly misinformed about mental health issues.
    A Canadian conservative is one who believes in limited government and that the government should stay out of our wallets and out of our bedrooms.

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    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by americanwoman View Post
    Yes but bondsmen typically don't return the money to you so that's taken as a total loss while posting bail yourself is just a temporary loss of money. So in a state where bondsmen are not legal it's easier to get help to make bail because the person knows (hopes) they are more likely to get the money back and may be easier to get a loan.
    It's a bit of a wash. Though bondsmen require payment upfront, or surety, they can do so because it's a very high risk specialized loan. The chances of taking a loan on bail outside the bail bondsman structure are approaching nil. At the very least the interest on the loan would end up being more than the 10% the bondsmen charge.

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    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Just curious, if the video had a bunch of skinheads, it would say more about whites in America than the justice system?

    And who are the "less than humans?" "Blacks in America" or violent individuals locked up. It's not clear from your statement which group we should be happy are locked up. I'm not sure of any "American" who is sad violent criminals are behind bars, but I don't actually care what color they are.
    I suppose you didn't actually look at the video or you wouldn't ask the questions. My comments are quite clear. The young black men who kicked, stomped on, beat, and otherwise attempted to hurt or kill the young man in question are the ones I was referring to as less than human. You are free to agree or disagree - makes no difference to me.
    A Canadian conservative is one who believes in limited government and that the government should stay out of our wallets and out of our bedrooms.

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    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    He was offered on two seperate occasions the opportunity to leave jail with time served while awaiting trial. He said "I'm good" and opted to stay in jail. That doesnt include the numerous plea bargains he was offered.
    To get out for "time served" wouldn't he have to plead guilty? So the right to a speedy trial doesn't exist if you are given the opportunity to just plead guilty to a crime in order to get out?

    Jeeze...spend three years in jail or leave early with a criminal record. Sounds just to me...
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    This is a constitutional issue here...3 years in jail without being tried for something isn't a "speedy trial" and the fact a bond was offered doesn't mean someone no longer has a right to a speedy trial.
    Do you know how many continuances were requested by he and his defense? Do you know how many times he was set to go to trial and it was delayed by him? There was at least one witness, as I understand it, who identified him as the person who stole the backpack - could it be that he and his defense were hoping that this witness didn't show up at some point?

    We can all speculate. Seems after 3 years the prosecution decided they had bigger fish to fry and cut him loose. Could be he and his defense were successful in waiting it out and avoiding trial. Cost him a lot, but that might have been his choice.
    A Canadian conservative is one who believes in limited government and that the government should stay out of our wallets and out of our bedrooms.

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    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    "...Since the 1970s, research has been amassed indicating that solitary confinement does alter neural and therefore psychological states. One study examining the development of psychopathologies found that those in solitary developed pathologies at higher rates than those in the general population (28% vs. 15%).

    Another study of 20 prisoners who volunteered for a week of solitary confinement found that the prisoners exhibited decreased EEG activity, indicative of increased theta activity, which is related to stress, tension, and anxiety.
    Prisoners in solitary confinement have been found to engage in self-mutilation at rates higher than the general population. Other research found that individuals released directly on to the streets had a higher recidivism rate compared to
    those who spent time in the general population after solitary confinement (64 vs. 41%). Inmates released in Washington in the course of one year, controlling for criminal history and mental health, were more likely to commit felonies and crimes against individuals if they had been assigned to a supermax facility.

    In 2005, forty-four prisoners in the California prison system committed suicide; 70% of whom were in solitary confinement. This has been a consistent trend. A national study of 401 jail suicides in 1986 found that two out of three were
    among those held in a control unit. A 2007 study examining attempted suicide in the prison system identified solitary confinement as a major factor in suicidal ideation and suicide attempts...."
    http://solitarywatch.com/wp-content/...onfinement.pdf The link has citations for the studies mentioned.

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    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Just curious, there are perhaps 10s of thousands of vets suffering PTSD and other mental illnesses long (years!!) after they were in Iraq/Afghanistan. Suicide among returning vets, along with substance abuse, depression, etc. is a serious problem. I guess you'll blame the combat veterans, too, when they kill themselves, tell the family it was their fault for not taking better care of their veteran spouse, or their husband/wife was just a weak loser? Yeah, right...

    It's always shocking how misinformed the American public is about mental health issues.
    Nice try but wrong. The vets are harmed by their choice to serve us all. Thus when they return we have a duty to render them aid. These are the best of us and they should be preserved.

    This knob was harmed by his choice of a criminal path. He's on his own to mitigate that harm. We owe him no duty.

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    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Clearly, you're correct. It's the inferences that are the problem, as initially provided in post 1 of this thread. We don't know the answers to the why for any of those facts you state. My comment "it makes no sense on its face" is in reference to the inferences, not the facts as presented.

    As an example, it's assumed in the OP and by others that his spending 2 years in solitary confinement was a form of unwarranted punishment. Do we know that to be true? Could it be he was in solitary because of his own behaviour? Could it be he was in solitary for his own safety? We don't have the answers, at least not in this thread, yet it's assumed that the justice department was unfairly punishing him. That may be true, but it's not been proven.
    You find it somehow unbelievable the family couldn't come up with bail. They didn't. Obviously part of the issue with the criminal justice system is that if you DO have a supportive family, and/or money, you'd have spent a couple nights if that in jail. Poor people by the HUNDREDS in NY, and by the thousands across the country, spend years in jail with no trial effectively because they are poor. Sure, condemn the family. I don't know, but we can assume they're not winning parents of the year. Doesn't change what happened to the kid, or that the system failed him in a particularly catastrophic way.

    And if he was in solitary confinement, an act we know causes serious, long term, mental problems for adults, for "his own safety" based on a charge of robbery of a damn backpack - jail is too dangerous for a 16 year old - then maybe that's a serious problem with the system? Yeah, that's part of the whole point. Also, too, the trial delays. Sure, maybe his "agents" or whatever you called them requested continuances because they've got 1,000 other defendants they're trying to weave through the system. Again, that's not the kid's problem - he's poor, and he's entitled to competent defense. He didn't get it.

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    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    You find it somehow unbelievable the family couldn't come up with bail. They didn't. Obviously part of the issue with the criminal justice system is that if you DO have a supportive family, and/or money, you'd have spent a couple nights if that in jail. Poor people by the HUNDREDS in NY, and by the thousands across the country, spend years in jail with no trial effectively because they are poor. Sure, condemn the family. I don't know, but we can assume they're not winning parents of the year. Doesn't change what happened to the kid, or that the system failed him in a particularly catastrophic way.

    And if he was in solitary confinement, an act we know causes serious, long term, mental problems for adults, for "his own safety" based on a charge of robbery of a damn backpack - jail is too dangerous for a 16 year old - then maybe that's a serious problem with the system? Yeah, that's part of the whole point. Also, too, the trial delays. Sure, maybe his "agents" or whatever you called them requested continuances because they've got 1,000 other defendants they're trying to weave through the system. Again, that's not the kid's problem - he's poor, and he's entitled to competent defense. He didn't get it.
    This all may be true, but it's speculation. Which is my point. I'm simply offering alternative scenarios that counter the prevailing assumptions. How do you know he was poor? As a 16 yr old, he's still a dependent. He was in foster care, as someone else noted, in a family that had fostered 25 other children. Does that sound like a poor family? Maybe the problem is with foster care/children's aid services, not the justice system. What happened to the family supports he generated as a foster child while he was in jail? That had to be about $350 a month, give or take.

    It's easy to blame the system - just as easy as it is to blame police in every take-down situation. If he was treated so poorly by the system, why no attempts by he or his counsel to seek compensation in the 2 and a half years after he was released? As I said previously, his "loving" family is surely now lining up for a potential lottery win on his dead body.
    A Canadian conservative is one who believes in limited government and that the government should stay out of our wallets and out of our bedrooms.

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