Page 21 of 22 FirstFirst ... 1119202122 LastLast
Results 201 to 210 of 216

Thread: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

  1. #201
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Tennessee
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:18 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    20,680

    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    The fact is that we just don't know anything about what else was going on in his life.
    What we do know is there is no record of psychological problems before he was arrested and sent to jail, he tried to kill himself in jail while in solitary, and was mentally troubled, and in and out of several mental institutions after his release. We know that solitary confinement can have lasting and debilitating effects on those who endure it. Teens are mentally vulnerable as they're minds aren't yet fully developed. We also know PTSD often lasts years - median 3-5 years, often far longer.

    Of course we don't KNOW anything - maybe his mental issues are unrelated. It's not unusual for serious mental problems to first manifest around that age. But I don't see it as anything like "strained at best" to conclude that his time in jail and especially two years in solitary is the most likely primary cause of his mental problems, his suicide attempt in solitary, his multiple attempts after he was released and his eventual death.

  2. #202
    Guru
    Zinthaniel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Last Seen
    09-19-17 @ 09:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    2,705

    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Did you actually comprehend what I posted or are you like many who simply, dishonestly, label opinions you find uncomfortable to consider as racism?

    I expanded on my view in post #122. I have no intention of continuing to do so.

    And yes, I know there are some African Americans on this site. Those who know me and know my views don't consider me a racist and don't toss around such labels against fellow members as a debating tactic.
    I haven't been dishonest about anything. You have though and this -

    Now, I reviewed the story and reviewed the video and I saw very little that was truly evident about a broken American justice system but I did see a lot of black youth who spat on, kicked, stomped, and beat upon another black youth in the confines of a jail and even with a couple of jail guards trying to control the situation continued to do so. That is what I commented upon. In the context of what happened in Ferguson, what happened and is happening in Baltimore, what's happening daily in Chicago, and in other cities in America, where black on black crime is rampant, where black youth kill other black youth for sport and pleasure, and where respect for others and the property of others is often non-existent, the video in the OP and the actions of these youth said more about blacks in America than it said about the American justice system.
    is just another racist and myopic post of yours. It only clarifies how little you know about black Americans.

    You think black people kill each other for fun and sport. Really? We just go and buy guns and blow each others heads off on a hot and boring day because that's just the thing to do?

    There is not a single thing in that post that is unique to black youth or people. I can match you tit for tat in white crimes- rioting, murder, property destruction, white on white crime.

    If you weren't a racist then you would understand that video, if it is reflecting any grander truth, reflects the reality of inner city and low-income youth/people. Regardless of race.

    It does just so happen that in comparison to any other race in this country the African American population is comprised primarily off poor citizens who live in rough and down and dirty neighborhoods. The notion bad behavior has any link to the color of one's skin is idiocy plain and simple.

    If you do your research about any petty and egregious crime in any country, including those countries that are primarily white, you'll notice the demographic committing most of those crimes are poor.

    Don't believe me? Hell, confine your research to the U.S.A notice that of the many petty crimes committed by white people here the vast majority of them are committed by white men and women from low-income - poor lifestyles.

    We can conclude that drastic, desperate, and violent criminals are created by their environment. The color of their skin is entirely unrelated.
    Last edited by Zinthaniel; 06-11-15 at 11:26 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    In my own experience here, people seem to ignore a posters professional experience or training if the app pro holds a view that is disagreed with.

  3. #203
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Tennessee
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:18 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    20,680

    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    So, to cut to the chase, you'd prefer I simply accept your version of events and your interpretation of those events without question or counter argument. Perhaps you don't understand the concept of debate - that seems reasonable since you didn't understand the point I was making in my original post and your interpretation of my views has gone downhill ever since.
    No, but my 'interpretation' is based on the facts in evidence, as detailed in the various accounts. I'm willing to consider alternative evidence, but you haven't provided any and neither did CB. For example, what is the evidence that the delays were caused by defense counsel, or that the defendant had any input into those delays if any? None, zero, has been presented. There is ample evidence the vast majority of the delays were caused by the prosecution claiming it wasn't ready to proceed - at least 11 requests, over a period of years, for a case that basically entirely hinged in the testimony of the victim.

    What is the argument for allowing a requested "one week" delay that stretches to 12 actual weeks of actual delay to count only ONE week against the six month time limit. No one has even tried to defend that legal peculiarity.

    What is the argument for the notion that his case is an example of the justice system actually working as it should? I don't, cannot possibly, believe that if he was your child, that you'd be satisfied that waiting three years for a trial that never came, for a crime your son maintained from second ONE through his death he didn't commit, is justice for your child.

    What evidence is there that besides being poor the family failed him during his detention or after his release? I've seen NONE presented. The story says his mother visited weekly, did his laundry, provided money, obtained psychiatric care after his release.

    Is there any evidence of mental problems before detention. If not, and I've seen none, why is it a stretch to conclude his suicide attempt while in jail, and multiple attempts after release, is related to his detention?

    Perhaps you'd be better off if you simply expressed your own views and counter arguments and stopped trying to misinterpret other posters' thoughts and words to suit your agenda and/or straw men you'd like to attack.
    If I misinterpreted you, I apologize, but given several opportunities to admit that the video tells us really nothing about "blacks" in America, you refused. No video, or incidents in Ferguson or Chicago, support broad generalizations about 42 million unique black individuals, rich and poor, old and young, male and female, inner city, rural, that run the gamut of personal characteristics.

    Please feel free to respond, but I'm done engaging with you on this subject.
    Fine.
    Last edited by JasperL; 06-11-15 at 11:37 AM.

  4. #204
    Canadian Conservative
    CanadaJohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 08:28 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    27,051

    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by Zinthaniel View Post
    I haven't been dishonest about anything. You have though and this -



    is just another racist and myopic post of yours. It only clarifies how little you know about black Americans.

    You think black people kill each other for fun and sport. Really? We just go and buy guns and blow each others heads off on a hot and boring day because that's just the thing to do?

    There is not a single thing in that post that is unique to black youth or people. I can match you tit for tat in white crimes- rioting, murder, property destruction, white on white crime.

    If you weren't a racist then you would understand that video, if it is reflecting any grander truth, reflects the reality of inner city and low-income youth/people. Regardless of race.

    It does just so happen that in comparison to any other race in this country the African American population is comprised primarily off poor citizens who live in rough and down and dirty neighborhoods. The notion bad behavior has any link to the color of one's skin is idiocy plain and simple.

    If you do your research about any petty and egregious crime in any country, including those countries that are primarily white, you'll notice the demographic committing most of those crimes are poor.

    Don't believe me? Hell, confine your research to the U.S.A notice that of the many petty crimes committed by white people here the vast majority of them are committed by white men and women from low-income - poor lifestyles.

    We can conclude that drastic, desperate, and violent criminals are created by their environment. The color of their skin is entirely unrelated.
    Get off your soapbox. You clearly didn't read what I said or the connection I made to the OP because your hell bent on finding someone to call a racist.

    You're part of the problem in America. You're afraid to face, head on, what is happening in many of your larger cities and you want to make the struggles of black people in America the fault of anyone but themselves. I've said many times, in threads related to Baltimore, Ferguson, Chicago and others that the vast majority of black people in these cities are good, honest, law abiding people who support the police because those officers are all that is keeping them safe in some of the hell holes they live in. It isn't white people attacking them - it isn't police attacking them - it's the large criminal element among black youth in their own communities. The good, honest, law abiding black people in these areas know this. The people of Baltimore, in these troubled neighbourhoods, are suffering now because the police have pulled back, not wanting to be charged for simply doing their jobs. It is the good, honest, and law abiding black people who are now suffering in that city, like the poor black man, 47 I believe, with 5 children, who was simply sitting on his porch enjoying a nice spring evening and was shot dead by some cretin.

    But you don't care about these people - you'd rather protect and excuse those in this video and those who rioted in Ferguson and Baltimore and those in Chicago who do indeed kill fellow black youth for sport.

    You can call me a racist all you want if it makes you feel good, feel superior, and helps you ignore the truth of what's going on in your country. Means nothing to me. I have zero respect for your position because it's a position that's failed your country for too long.
    A Canadian conservative is one who believes in limited government and that the government should stay out of our wallets and out of our bedrooms.

  5. #205
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Tennessee
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:18 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    20,680

    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Get off your soapbox. You clearly didn't read what I said or the connection I made to the OP because your hell bent on finding someone to call a racist.

    You're part of the problem in America. You're afraid to face, head on, what is happening in many of your larger cities and you want to make the struggles of black people in America the fault of anyone but themselves. I've said many times, in threads related to Baltimore, Ferguson, Chicago and others that the vast majority of black people in these cities are good, honest, law abiding people who support the police because those officers are all that is keeping them safe in some of the hell holes they live in. It isn't white people attacking them - it isn't police attacking them - it's the large criminal element among black youth in their own communities. The good, honest, law abiding black people in these areas know this. The people of Baltimore, in these troubled neighbourhoods, are suffering now because the police have pulled back, not wanting to be charged for simply doing their jobs. It is the good, honest, and law abiding black people who are now suffering in that city, like the poor black man, 47 I believe, with 5 children, who was simply sitting on his porch enjoying a nice spring evening and was shot dead by some cretin.

    But you don't care about these people - you'd rather protect and excuse those in this video and those who rioted in Ferguson and Baltimore and those in Chicago who do indeed kill fellow black youth for sport.

    You can call me a racist all you want if it makes you feel good, feel superior, and helps you ignore the truth of what's going on in your country. Means nothing to me. I have zero respect for your position because it's a position that's failed your country for too long.
    Who has done that? Can you quote anyone defending the gang bangers in jail who beat Kalief Browder? Or those black or white who kill others for sport?

    And few support "rioters" but protesting is an cherished right and American tradition dating back at least to the Tea party. You don't have to agree with the cause, but there is no problem with any group having and expressing views in public gatherings, sometimes impolitely!

    But based on the comment above, you made an observation that clearly as stated didn't reflect anything like your views of "blacks in America" and then for some reason waited until post 204 to make that clear.

  6. #206
    Curmudgeon


    LowDown's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Houston
    Last Seen
    10-22-17 @ 09:54 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    11,336
    Blog Entries
    10

    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    What we do know is there is no record of psychological problems before he was arrested and sent to jail, he tried to kill himself in jail while in solitary, and was mentally troubled, and in and out of several mental institutions after his release. We know that solitary confinement can have lasting and debilitating effects on those who endure it. Teens are mentally vulnerable as they're minds aren't yet fully developed. We also know PTSD often lasts years - median 3-5 years, often far longer.

    Of course we don't KNOW anything - maybe his mental issues are unrelated. It's not unusual for serious mental problems to first manifest around that age. But I don't see it as anything like "strained at best" to conclude that his time in jail and especially two years in solitary is the most likely primary cause of his mental problems, his suicide attempt in solitary, his multiple attempts after he was released and his eventual death.
    That seems like an awful lot of hand waving. I suspect it won't be as cut and dried under cross examination.

    It's not clear to me what the prosecution's legal theory is going to be. He was kept in jail legally even if it was a horrible thing to do to a kid.

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

  7. #207
    Guru
    Zinthaniel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Last Seen
    09-19-17 @ 09:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    2,705

    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Get off your soapbox. You clearly didn't read what I said or the connection I made to the OP because your hell bent on finding someone to call a racist.
    I don't have to look hard to find anything. Your posts in this thread are there for the world to see in all their ignorant and racist glory.

    You're part of the problem in America.
    No, I'm not. I would say you are, but you don't even live here.

    You're afraid to face, head on, what is happening in many of your larger cities and you want to make the struggles of black people in America the fault of anyone but themselves.
    You came to this conclusion how? Where in my post did I make any position on who is to blame for what? You don't know my argument on that topic, but nice strawman.

    I've said many times, in threads related to Baltimore, Ferguson, Chicago and others that the vast majority of black people in these cities are good, honest, law-abiding people who support the police because those officers are all that is keeping them safe in some of the hell holes they live in.
    And then in this thread you claimed that the video is testmament to blacks of america. You are talking out of both side of your neck.

    It isn't white people attacking them - it isn't police attacking them - it's the large criminal element among black youth in their own communities.
    Again you are trying to argue a point I didn't bring up. Poor communities create many criminals. Again this isn't unique to black people.

    The good, honest, law abiding black people in these areas know this.
    Your point. I can point out good whites and bad whites too. Your insistance in bringing up race is disgusting. This issue of inner city crime has nothing to do with an inherent dispostion for crime based on race. It is entirely enviromental.

    The people of Baltimore, in these troubled neighbourhoods, are suffering now because the police have pulled back, not wanting to be charged for simply doing their jobs.
    They are suffering more now than there were before? Do you evidence for comparison?

    It is the good, honest, and law-abiding black people who are now suffering in that city, like the poor black man, 47 I believe, with 5 children, who was simply sitting on his porch enjoying a nice spring evening and was shot dead by some cretin.
    Right - and sandy hook, columbine, batman massacre are more examples of how deadly bad black people can be you should throw that into your pile of "evidence" ... Oh wait.


    But you don't care about these people
    I do care about people. The difference between me and you is that I wont lump them all together. I judge people on an individual basis.


    -
    you'd rather protect and excuse those in this video and those who rioted in Ferguson and Baltimore and those in Chicago who do indeed kill fellow black youth for sport.
    If you think black people kill each other for sport then you are racist.

    You keep pointing out the fact that these criminals are black and yet you can't fathom the fact that nothing you have said, still, is unique to black youth or people. White people are constantly murdered primarily by one race. And that race is, non other, than other white people. So homogeneous race on race crime isn't unique to african americans. Pointing out that black people are capable of crime does not make whatever racist point you are trying to make.

    You can call me a racist all you want if it makes you feel good, feel superior, and helps you ignore the truth of what's going on in your country.
    You are a racist and that's the lowest form of intelligence. The word describes you to a T.

    Means nothing to me.
    I would assume that most racist don't care.

    I have zero respect for your position because it's a position that's failed your country for too long.
    Why would I care about what you do and don't respect. Regardless if you can acknowledge your ignorance it doesn't absolve you from it.
    Last edited by Zinthaniel; 06-11-15 at 12:22 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    In my own experience here, people seem to ignore a posters professional experience or training if the app pro holds a view that is disagreed with.

  8. #208
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Tennessee
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:18 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    20,680

    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    That seems like an awful lot of hand waving. I suspect it won't be as cut and dried under cross examination.
    If you're asking about a legal standard, then yes, it's a difficult thing to prove causality. For decades it was a tough sell under cross examination to "prove" cigarettes caused cancer.... But on a practical level, if it was someone I knew, I am very positive I'd see the cause as the detention and especially the solitary confinement, since the mental issues started at that time and never stopped.

    It's not clear to me what the prosecution's legal theory is going to be. He was kept in jail legally even if it was a horrible thing to do to a kid.
    From the story:

    Prestia, in his lawsuit, alleges “malicious prosecution,” charging that Johnson’s prosecutors were “representing to the court that they would be ‘ready’ for trial, when in fact, they never were.” Prestia said, “The million-dollar question is: When did they really know they didn’t have a witness? Did they really not know until 2013?” He suspects that, as he wrote in his complaint, they were “seeking long, undue adjournments of these cases to procure a guilty plea from plaintiff.”
    I'm no lawyer, but that sounds right to me. Certainly this series of events supports the claim directly:

    June 29, 2012: People not ready, request one week.

    September 28, 2012: People not ready, request two weeks.

    November 2, 2012: People not ready, request one week.

    December 14, 2012: People not ready, request one week.
    They told the court on June 29th that they needed "one week" to prepare (after several previous "one week" delay requests), or by July 6th. But three MONTHS later, after having the case for over 24 months, they need two MORE weeks? Those don't seem like honest declarations to the court, for a case that involved one witness...
    Last edited by JasperL; 06-11-15 at 12:30 PM.

  9. #209
    Minister of Love
    PoS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Oceania
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 03:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    11,626

    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by MathewSmith View Post
    Kalief Browder, a young man from New York City who had gained national renown in recent years as a symbol of America's broken criminal justice system, took his own life this weekend, according to a report from The New Yorker. He was 22.

    The Death Of Kalief Browder Is An 'American Tragedy Almost Beyond Words'

    They broke his mind keeping him in solitary. He was too young to survive such torture. RIP. They won't hurt you anymore. What can I say...I'm not afraid of ISIS, I'm not afraid of Russia, I'm not afraid of Boko Haram, I'm not afraid of parachute jump. I'm afraid of our American Justice System. There are many people responsible for this young death. Unfortunately, l doubt that any of them will ever pay a price.
    Incidents like this can be minimized if we just get rid of sovereign immunity for both law enforcement and the state- once cops and prosecutors realize that they can be held both criminally and civilly liable they wont want to abuse their powers so much.

  10. #210
    Curmudgeon


    LowDown's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Houston
    Last Seen
    10-22-17 @ 09:54 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    11,336
    Blog Entries
    10

    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    If you're asking about a legal standard, then yes, it's a difficult thing to prove causality. For decades it was a tough sell under cross examination to "prove" cigarettes caused cancer.... But on a practical level, if it was someone I knew, I am very positive I'd see the cause as the detention and especially the solitary confinement, since the mental issues started at that time and never stopped.



    From the story:



    I'm no lawyer, but that sounds right to me. Certainly this series of events supports the claim directly:



    They told the court on June 29th that they needed "one week" to prepare (after several previous "one week" delay requests), or by July 6th. But three MONTHS later, after having the case for over 24 months, they need two MORE weeks? Those don't seem like honest declarations to the court, for a case that involved one witness...
    Where was the judge in all this?

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

Page 21 of 22 FirstFirst ... 1119202122 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •