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Thread: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

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    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I appreciate your efforts here. I just have to say it's a losing battle trying to counter irrational emotion, the typical liberal base for all arguments, with facts and the law - many liberals just haven't the mental capacity to understand the concept of facts and law and so they resort to their base emotions.
    LMMFAO. Right, liberals are relying on base emotions. Us liberals point out prosecution requests for delays of "one week" are allowed by the law to count one week against the 6 months even if the actual delay is 6 weeks, or 8 weeks or 10 weeks. We quote from the story, repeatedly, that shows at least 10 such delays by the prosecution, running up delays well over a year. CB ignores this, literally, and says it's all the defense's fault, cites nothing, pure conjecture, baseless speculation. And he's the one relying on facts......

    But no one is surprised what side you're taking here.
    Last edited by JasperL; 06-11-15 at 12:41 AM.

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    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    This thing is very complicated, but two things struck me right away. First, that Browder has pleaded guilty to grand larceny for his part in the earlier joyriding incident, and received probation. That meant he was already on thin ice. But for the probation violation, his family might have managed to come up with enough money to bail him out, and things would probably have taken a different course. Second, a grand jury indicted him, and I wonder what evidence it considered. It seems very odd that it would have indicted him for a felony on nothing more than one man's claim.

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    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    This thing is very complicated, but two things struck me right away. First, that Browder has pleaded guilty to grand larceny for his part in the earlier joyriding incident, and received probation. That meant he was already on thin ice. But for the probation violation, his family might have managed to come up with enough money to bail him out, and things would probably have taken a different course. Second, a grand jury indicted him, and I wonder what evidence it considered. It seems very odd that it would have indicted him for a felony on nothing more than one man's claim.
    The indictment doesn't surprise me. Not even a little bit. Look at all the innocent people that have been exonerated after yrs in prison based on false testimony or weak DNA evidence. Many a man has been convicted on much less evidence. The system is broken. When a prosecutor what's to get ya....guess what....they probably will.

    And unfortunately the ones that are usually the one exonerated are the poor people that can't afford to pay for the hot shot lawyers. Afluant people dont get put in jail on bogus charges/weak eveidence. Heck, afluance is now a defense to NOT got to prison.
    Last edited by Chase; 06-11-15 at 04:17 AM.

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    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by Chase View Post
    The indictment doesn't surprise me. Not even a little bit. Look at all the innocent people that have been exonerated after yrs in prison based on false testimony or weak DNA evidence. Many a man has been convicted on much less evidence. The system is broken. When a prosecutor what's to get ya....guess what....they probably will.

    And unfortunately the ones that are usually the one exonerated are the poor people that can't afford to pay for the hot shot lawyers. Afluant people dont get put in jail on bogus charges/weak eveidence. Heck, afluance is now a defense to NOT got to prison.
    As a lawyer who has done a little criminal work, I think you have some serious misconceptions. It's not the job of a prosecutor's office to "get" anyone--in fact that would violate their ethical duty--but rather to see that justice is done. And they only spend time prosecuting the cases they've evaluated and think are pretty strong. Many of the people arrested by police are never prosecuted, for a long list of reasons that may make the case against them weak or even non-existent. A few prosecutors of the many thousands around the U.S. are probably bastards, but any that I have ever met have been fair-minded and professional.

    Everything about criminal law in the U.S. is weighted in favor of the defendant, and against the prosecution. Every defendant starts out with the legal presumption that he is innocent, and the burden is on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he is guilty of [I]every single element[/] of any and all crimes he is charged with. His answers to any questions police may ask before he has been given the Miranda will not be admissible evidence in court. Any defendant charged with any crime, even the least misdemeanor, has the constitutional right to a jury trial, and to a lawyer if he cannot afford one. A great many people who are guilty as sin go free because in most states, the jury's verdict has to be unanimous. And sometimes there is that one juror that will not vote to convict, no matter how much proof of guilt there is.

    Because a case usually will not go to trial unless there is strong evidence the defendant is guilty of the offenses charged, it should not be surprising that juries find many of those defendants guilty. And it's seldom because they don't get a competent defense. There are a number of constitutional limits the prosecution has to comply with in ANY case, and they apply with exactly the same force whether the defendant is a vagrant or a millionaire. Maybe you have been watching too many TV and movie versions of how things work in court--most of them are utter nonsense.

    You're also overlooking the fact that if a judge allows anything at trial that is unfair to the defendant--e.g. jury instructions where something in the wording might tend to bias a juror against the defendant--the conviction may well be overturned on appeal. The outrage in this case is the lack of a speedy trial, and I'd be interested to know if there have been suits against New York for violating the Sixth Amendment right. There have always been and will always be isolated miscarriages of justice, because people can never be perfect. But anyone who takes a case like this one as the rule rather than the exception just doesn't know what he's talking about. Things sure as hell do not work anything like that here in L.A.

    By the way, what is our Justice Dept. doing about the kind of misconduct that apparently takes place in those jails? If there is a pattern of guards abusing prisoners there, not only the guards but also the officials in charge of the jails can be prosecuted under federal civil rights laws. Prison guards can use only as much as is reasonable to maintain order--when they go beyond that, they are committing federal crimes. In one case--also in New York--a cop was given a life sentence for causing the death of a suspect in the station by sodomizing him brutally with the wooden handle of a toilet plunger.

  5. #195
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    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by Zinthaniel View Post
    The video tells you alot about blacks in America? Every single one - really john? From that video you now have a firm grasp on what the typical African American is - is that so?

    Are you aware that some of the members on this site are African American?
    Did you actually comprehend what I posted or are you like many who simply, dishonestly, label opinions you find uncomfortable to consider as racism?

    I expanded on my view in post #122. I have no intention of continuing to do so.

    And yes, I know there are some African Americans on this site. Those who know me and know my views don't consider me a racist and don't toss around such labels against fellow members as a debating tactic.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Did you actually comprehend what I posted or are you like many who simply, dishonestly, label opinions you find uncomfortable to consider as racism?

    I expanded on my view in post #122. I have no intention of continuing to do so.

    And yes, I know there are some African Americans on this site. Those who know me and know my views don't consider me a racist and don't toss around such labels against fellow members as a debating tactic.
    Hey CJ, your average post is so thoughtful and logical that even if you misspoke, I would take it as that or at least ask you what you meant instead of issuing a knee jerk indictment that you're a racist. I would consider any accusations trolling.

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    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    As a lawyer who has done a little criminal work, I think you have some serious misconceptions. It's not the job of a prosecutor's office to "get" anyone--in fact that would violate their ethical duty--but rather to see that justice is done. And they only spend time prosecuting the cases they've evaluated and think are pretty strong. Many of the people arrested by police are never prosecuted, for a long list of reasons that may make the case against them weak or even non-existent. A few prosecutors of the many thousands around the U.S. are probably bastards, but any that I have ever met have been fair-minded and professional.

    Everything about criminal law in the U.S. is weighted in favor of the defendant, and against the prosecution. Every defendant starts out with the legal presumption that he is innocent, and the burden is on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he is guilty of [I]every single element[/] of any and all crimes he is charged with. His answers to any questions police may ask before he has been given the Miranda will not be admissible evidence in court. Any defendant charged with any crime, even the least misdemeanor, has the constitutional right to a jury trial, and to a lawyer if he cannot afford one. A great many people who are guilty as sin go free because in most states, the jury's verdict has to be unanimous. And sometimes there is that one juror that will not vote to convict, no matter how much proof of guilt there is.

    Because a case usually will not go to trial unless there is strong evidence the defendant is guilty of the offenses charged, it should not be surprising that juries find many of those defendants guilty. And it's seldom because they don't get a competent defense. There are a number of constitutional limits the prosecution has to comply with in ANY case, and they apply with exactly the same force whether the defendant is a vagrant or a millionaire. Maybe you have been watching too many TV and movie versions of how things work in court--most of them are utter nonsense.

    You're also overlooking the fact that if a judge allows anything at trial that is unfair to the defendant--e.g. jury instructions where something in the wording might tend to bias a juror against the defendant--the conviction may well be overturned on appeal. The outrage in this case is the lack of a speedy trial, and I'd be interested to know if there have been suits against New York for violating the Sixth Amendment right. There have always been and will always be isolated miscarriages of justice, because people can never be perfect. But anyone who takes a case like this one as the rule rather than the exception just doesn't know what he's talking about. Things sure as hell do not work anything like that here in L.A.

    By the way, what is our Justice Dept. doing about the kind of misconduct that apparently takes place in those jails? If there is a pattern of guards abusing prisoners there, not only the guards but also the officials in charge of the jails can be prosecuted under federal civil rights laws. Prison guards can use only as much as is reasonable to maintain order--when they go beyond that, they are committing federal crimes. In one case--also in New York--a cop was given a life sentence for causing the death of a suspect in the station by sodomizing him brutally with the wooden handle of a toilet plunger.
    All of this seems like the perfect justice system to me. Lawyers are some of the most devious and diabolical people on the planet. Yes I know it doesn't work like on TV. But you can not tell me that the system works the same for poor people as it does for rich people. Never has and never will. Even if you simply look at the numbers. A guy hires a lawyer after he gets arrested. The lawyer does his due diligence and arrives at whatever conclusion he get to. A poor guy gets a public defender who is working 15 or 20 other cases at the same time. That public defender is not going to be as tenacious on the poor guys case. It's just simply impossible. I've witnessed that several time. Is a poor guys EVER going to be able to claim afluance to get his kid off on a under age drunk driving accident when people are maimed or killed......I don't think so. That poor kid is going to jail. He's not going to get probation and community service.

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    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Did you actually comprehend what I posted or are you like many who simply, dishonestly, label opinions you find uncomfortable to consider as racism?

    I expanded on my view in post #122. I have no intention of continuing to do so.

    And yes, I know there are some African Americans on this site. Those who know me and know my views don't consider me a racist and don't toss around such labels against fellow members as a debating tactic.
    It's pretty simple. If you don't want to be called a racist, don't make broad generalizations about "blacks in America" from some videos of individual blacks already arrested and in prison. It's nonsense, and when called on it you somehow brought in Ferguson and Chicago... wft???

    And then don't proceed for the entire rest of the thread to take every opportunity to blame the defendant, his family, his defense team, after several cite damning facts that show at least a large part of the problem was, for example, a prosecutor who delayed the trial for over a year because he repeatedly (at least 11 times) claimed that he's not ready to present a case that consists of the testimony of one guy, and a system that allows a "one week" delay that stretches to 6 or 8 or 12 weeks PER REQUEST to count as only ONE week against the 6 month statutory time limit. And then don't express amazement that a guy who had no history of mental illness before jail and 2 years of solitary, then spent the years after release in and out of psychiatric wards and on psychiatric drugs, killed himself and that his experiences in prison contributed to that.

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    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    People can often be good actors when it comes to that kind of thing. I've seen it first hand from a good friend who blew his head off with a shotgun. No one had a clue, and I'd spent 4 days with him and some other guys on a hunting trip just two months before it happened.
    The fact is that we just don't know anything about what else was going on in his life.

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

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    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    It's pretty simple. If you don't want to be called a racist, don't make broad generalizations about "blacks in America" from some videos of individual blacks already arrested and in prison. It's nonsense, and when called on it you somehow brought in Ferguson and Chicago... wft???

    And then don't proceed for the entire rest of the thread to take every opportunity to blame the defendant, his family, his defense team, after several cite damning facts that show at least a large part of the problem was, for example, a prosecutor who delayed the trial for over a year because he repeatedly (at least 11 times) claimed that he's not ready to present a case that consists of the testimony of one guy, and a system that allows a "one week" delay that stretches to 6 or 8 or 12 weeks PER REQUEST to count as only ONE week against the 6 month statutory time limit. And then don't express amazement that a guy who had no history of mental illness before jail and 2 years of solitary, then spent the years after release in and out of psychiatric wards and on psychiatric drugs, killed himself and that his experiences in prison contributed to that.
    So, to cut to the chase, you'd prefer I simply accept your version of events and your interpretation of those events without question or counter argument. Perhaps you don't understand the concept of debate - that seems reasonable since you didn't understand the point I was making in my original post and your interpretation of my views has gone downhill ever since.

    Perhaps you'd be better off if you simply expressed your own views and counter arguments and stopped trying to misinterpret other posters' thoughts and words to suit your agenda and/or straw men you'd like to attack.

    Please feel free to respond, but I'm done engaging with you on this subject.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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