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Thread: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

  1. #101
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    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Read my initial post. I clearly said that the video says more about blacks in America than it does about the American justice system and that those in the video were less than human and America should be glad their likes are locked up.

    I stand by those words - they are true, if brutal.
    There are 42 million black people in the United States. One video does not "say" anything about that entire population - obviously. So here's the actual "brutal" truth. You hold racist beliefs about black people. You interpreted this story through those racist beliefs and then you came to a racist conclusion. Even further, you're adamant that you're just telling the "brutal truth" while being unwilling to accept the "brutal truth" that what you said was racist.

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    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Do you know how many continuances were requested by he and his defense? Do you know how many times he was set to go to trial and it was delayed by him? There was at least one witness, as I understand it, who identified him as the person who stole the backpack - could it be that he and his defense were hoping that this witness didn't show up at some point?

    We can all speculate. Seems after 3 years the prosecution decided they had bigger fish to fry and cut him loose. Could be he and his defense were successful in waiting it out and avoiding trial. Cost him a lot, but that might have been his choice.
    People sitting behind bars for a long period of time waiting for a trial isn't something out of the norm. 1,500 rikers inmates out 10,000 have waited over a year and 400 have waited over 2 years for various reasons.

    It's for various reasons but the bail bond system isn't an adequate fix for a faulty system. Pleading guilty to a crime you didn't commit isn't a fix.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Another poster quoted it as $3550 - I don't know one way or the other. Bail bondsmen will take about 10 cents on the dollar to post bail so that's anywhere from $350 to $1000. Mother didn't have it yet she was considered financially secure enough to have him as a foster child and have taken care of 25 others, supposedly. I can tell you that here in Canada nobody that poor is fostering children and they get pretty good supports from the system.
    Unfortunately in the States some parents foster as an income source - the .gov pays foster parents directly, similar to the way child-support is given to the custodial parent.

    Some here foster for the right reasons (I knew one, and the parents got burnt by punk the kid), and some see fostering as an income stream.

    I make no representations in this specific case, however.
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    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    As more than half of the suicides in the Army today involve individuals that have NEVER deployed, you may be barking...but not up the right tree.
    OK, I'll make the point directly. There are thousands or tens of thousands of veterans who suffer from PTSD as a result of their combat in Iraq and Afghanistan. Before them, we had a generation of Vietnam vets, among them members of my family, who also suffered long term mental illness as a direct result of their combat in war. No on disputes this, and no one believes there is some time limit - "after two years, all symptoms are gone." No one blames the soldiers or their families for their mental illness. We should, if we are decent, treat them, sometimes for a lifetime, for these mental health issues as a result of combat for this country. I think we all agree with that.

    So when people say, well hell, the kid was home over two years, his suicide can't have anything to do with the trauma of 2 years in solitary of a still developing teenager, they are simply ignorant about mental health issues, what long term mental harm solitary confinement is KNOWN to cause (not disputed), or how long that harm can last.

    And the fact that half the Army suicides are not related to combat says nothing, really. Many thousands of Americans commit suicide and never joined any military. That some number of military veterans who didn't serve suffer the same type of mental issues as the population isn't surprising.

    If you wanted to make a point, you'd show somehow that PTSD for returning combat veterans isn't a problem and that the rate of mental health problems and the suicide rate for combat veterans is no different than veterans who never served anywhere near a combat zone. I don't think you can do that.

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    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Read my initial post. I clearly said that the video says more about blacks in America than it does about the American justice system and that those in the video were less than human and America should be glad their likes are locked up.

    I stand by those words - they are true, if brutal.
    What does it tell us about "blacks" in America?

    If it was meth dealing skinheads with swastika tattoos, what would that tell us about "whites" in America?

    Hint: the answer to both questions is "not a damn thing."

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    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    All things considered, CJ definitely could have expressed that sentiment better. He could have been far more selective rather than using the broad brush. I dont think the videos offered speaks to 'blacks in America'. But to those particular groups of people that happen to be black? The prison guards that beat him down, one of which was caught on video? The gang assaults that DID NOT STOP...even after guards were putting themselves between him and the gangs and even after the kid had been secured in a side room? Speaks pretty poorly of those groups.
    Correct, but the brush he's using is a broad, racist brush, and he's been given many opportunities to walk it back and refuses to.

    No one disputes the rest of your post above. Using that incident to make conclusions about "blacks" is the issue, and an obvious one.

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    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    OK, I'll make the point directly. There are thousands or tens of thousands of veterans who suffer from PTSD as a result of their combat in Iraq and Afghanistan. Before them, we had a generation of Vietnam vets, among them members of my family, who also suffered long term mental illness as a direct result of their combat in war. No on disputes this, and no one believes there is some time limit - "after two years, all symptoms are gone." No one blames the soldiers or their families for their mental illness. We should, if we are decent, treat them, sometimes for a lifetime, for these mental health issues as a result of combat for this country. I think we all agree with that.

    So when people say, well hell, the kid was home over two years, his suicide can't have anything to do with the trauma of 2 years in solitary of a still developing teenager, they are simply ignorant about mental health issues, what long term mental harm solitary confinement is KNOWN to cause (not disputed), or how long that harm can last.

    And the fact that half the Army suicides are not related to combat says nothing, really. Many thousands of Americans commit suicide and never joined any military. That some number of military veterans who didn't serve suffer the same type of mental issues as the population isn't surprising.

    If you wanted to make a point, you'd show somehow that PTSD for returning combat veterans isn't a problem and that the rate of mental health problems and the suicide rate for combat veterans is no different than veterans who never served anywhere near a combat zone. I don't think you can do that.
    I absolutely can make the point that the rate of suicides for non combat vets is the same as for combat vets,

    As for what this kids problems were...Im sure prison had a lot to do with it. Its a shame he didnt get the help he needed and really...theres no excuse or reason for him to have not got it. He was a mini-celebrity. He had a fan base of some well to do, well connected people. I dont know what tipped him. I dont know if anyone saw it coming and just couldnt help. You dont either.

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    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    I absolutely can make the point that the rate of suicides for non combat vets is the same as for combat vets,

    As for what this kids problems were...Im sure prison had a lot to do with it. Its a shame he didnt get the help he needed and really...theres no excuse or reason for him to have not got it. He was a mini-celebrity. He had a fan base of some well to do, well connected people. I dont know what tipped him. I dont know if anyone saw it coming and just couldnt help. You dont either.
    Just a stab in the dark here, but perhaps he committed another crime and he thought it might send him back.

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    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Correct, but the brush he's using is a broad, racist brush, and he's been given many opportunities to walk it back and refuses to.

    No one disputes the rest of your post above. Using that incident to make conclusions about "blacks" is the issue, and an obvious one.
    Could be he is just stubborn. Thats a character trait that more than a few of 'you guys' share. Not me, of course....


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    Re: Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    No...he was offered bail options as well as plea bargains. Did you read the stories that were linked?

    Ive not disagreed at all with the right to a speedy trial and have said that there are surely things that can and should be done different. I just actually bothered to objectively look at the story, read multiple accounts, and see both sides rather than just the one that supports my bent.
    What did I get wrong...he could pay bail or plead guilty. Are "bail options" different than bail?

    Both sides? A large segment of the prison population at Rikers has been waiting over a year for trial while 400 have waited over two years. Objectively...that's a systematic problem
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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