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Thread: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    The richest executives can hire anyone in the world, including people not subject to our tax schemes. Do you want people to have an incentive to amass wealth in your country? Or do you want wealth accumulation to be forbidden?

    If the latter, wealth will still be accumulated, just not where you live.
    Are you talking about shipping jobs overseas? I believe in heavy taxes on American companies that do that.

    I totally believe in rich people getting richer. It is great if a rich person can expand his wealth. However if he is doing this by not giving his workers any extra money then there is a problem. Business should benefit all groups in them not just people at the top.

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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by distraff View Post
    Are you talking about shipping jobs overseas? I believe in heavy taxes on American companies that do that.

    I totally believe in rich people getting richer. It is great if a rich person can expand his wealth. However if he is doing this by not giving his workers any extra money then there is a problem. Business should benefit all groups in them not just people at the top.
    By passing domestic labor laws that force higher wages and benefits for Americans only, they can give foreign workers "extra money" (by their standards) to produce the goods and services people want. This makes them richer and also makes the workers that want those jobs (which appear low paying by our standards) richer.

    If your goal is to make Americans better off, you should think twice about what sorts of labor legislation and corporate taxes you think sound so obvious.
    "The knowledge and prudence of the poor themselves, are absolutely the only means by which any general and permanent improvement in their condition can be effected." - Thomas Malthus

  3. #383
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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    By passing domestic labor laws that force higher wages and benefits for Americans only, they can give foreign workers "extra money" (by their standards) to produce the goods and services people want. This makes them richer and also makes the workers that want those jobs (which appear low paying by our standards) richer.
    The problem is that in order to stop foreign outsourcing you have to start paying workers $3 an hour and eliminate environmental protections. That kind of wage will result in mass starvation in the US and will not be enough for tens of millions to survive on.

    So there are three routes. 1. Continue the status quote and allow foreign outsourcing to hurt American wages. 2. Eliminate the minimum wage so that companies can produce super-cheap products at the expense of their worker's well-being. 3. Pass laws to discourage outsourcing. To me #3 is the best.

    If your goal is to make Americans better off, you should think twice about what sorts of labor legislation and corporate taxes you think sound so obvious.
    I don't think you actually refuted me here. You just warned me.

    America isn't so bad at inequality compared to some places. There are some places in the middle east that are getting richer because of oil. Problem is that almost all that new economic growth is going to the richest people. Since the money is not being used to build a middle class, when the oil runs out the country slides back into poverty. Arab countries should try to use their oil profits not just to line the purses of the rich but to build their middle class and diversity their workforce into other areas instead of just oil. Do you agree with this line of thinking?

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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by distraff View Post
    The problem is that in order to stop foreign outsourcing you have to start paying workers $3 an hour and eliminate environmental protections. That kind of wage will result in mass starvation in the US and will not be enough for tens of millions to survive on.
    You're just making up garbage on the fly.

    So there are three routes. 1. Continue the status quote and allow foreign outsourcing to hurt American wages. 2. Eliminate the minimum wage so that companies can produce super-cheap products at the expense of their worker's well-being. 3. Pass laws to discourage outsourcing. To me #3 is the best.
    Yet another false dichotomy. Your belief in the ability to punish companies for the foreign business they do without it backfiring is excessive.

    The long story short -- liberals believe protectionism works, and would accomplish their goals. This is an odd belief.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 07-05-15 at 11:25 AM.
    "The knowledge and prudence of the poor themselves, are absolutely the only means by which any general and permanent improvement in their condition can be effected." - Thomas Malthus

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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    You're just making up garbage on the fly.

    Yet another false dichotomy. Your belief in the ability to punish companies for the foreign business they do without it backfiring is excessive.

    The long story short -- liberals believe protectionism works, and would accomplish their goals. This is an odd belief.
    I have not heard any of your ideas. What would you do about outsourcing?

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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by distraff View Post
    I have not heard any of your ideas. What would you do about outsourcing?
    There is not much we can do to prevent it without making ourselves worse off. We don't have the ability to oppress businesses. Businesses are not our captives. We cannot punish them into doing precisely what our whims tell us they should do. Passing labor laws that force higher wages and benefits and enable unions, etc. also make it worse for us overall. We should at least stop doing the things that make things worse for ourselves by making domestic labor non-competitive.

    American consumers would have to completely change their preferences if we could realistically expect stable and abundant domestic labor.
    "The knowledge and prudence of the poor themselves, are absolutely the only means by which any general and permanent improvement in their condition can be effected." - Thomas Malthus

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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    There is not much we can do to prevent it without making ourselves worse off. We don't have the ability to oppress businesses. Businesses are not our captives. We cannot punish them into doing precisely what our whims tell us they should do. Passing labor laws that force higher wages and benefits and enable unions, etc. also make it worse for us overall. We should at least stop doing the things that make things worse for ourselves by making domestic labor non-competitive.

    American consumers would have to completely change their preferences if we could realistically expect stable and abundant domestic labor.
    In what way will taxing companies that move production offshore hurt us? How much of an effect does outsourcing have on employment? What about wages?

    In my mind outsourcing lowers prices and allows more foreign talent to boost our productivity. However since the rest of the world has so much lower wages outsourcing and globalization will result in stagnant or falling wages for US workers. Globalization puts US workers in competition with foreign workers and to compete we will have to lower wages.

    My question is how much of a problem is this?

    It is estimated that 3.2 million jobs were lost due to outsourcing since 2000.
    Outsourcing to China Cost U.S. 3.2 Million Jobs Since 2001 - US News


    As a comparison 8.2 million are unemployed.

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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by distraff View Post
    In what way will taxing companies that move production offshore hurt us? How much of an effect does outsourcing have on employment? What about wages?
    Those are complex questions. It is not practical to try to chase companies around the world who we argue have "moved." They can simply lay people off and, at some point later on, open a production facility somewhere else, and there is little practical way to pin them down and insist they "moved" and pin a tax on them. The only common way to enforce this sort of protectionism is by taxing imports. There is a lot of economic literature as to the impact of this, which is why even left wing economists don't advocate it.

    In my mind outsourcing lowers prices and allows more foreign talent to boost our productivity. However since the rest of the world has so much lower wages outsourcing and globalization will result in stagnant or falling wages for US workers. Globalization puts US workers in competition with foreign workers and to compete we will have to lower wages.
    Or we could just raise wages and benefits through legislative mandates and make our labor altogether non-competitive with the rest of the world, and then whine about the effects. That's what we've been doing.
    "The knowledge and prudence of the poor themselves, are absolutely the only means by which any general and permanent improvement in their condition can be effected." - Thomas Malthus

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