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Thread: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

  1. #351
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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Is it your desire to have most (any?) personal income, in excess of that used for personal consumption, placed under the control of the federal government? I find that the poor rarely hire me (or anyone else) while they still consume at least much as they produce - there are few businesses (or governments) that can sustain themselves serving mainly poor folks. Representation without taxation is just as bad as the reverse when it comes to creating a bigger, more powerful and more expensive government. Having a relationship between your personal cost of government and your desire for more of it is important in a democracy (democratic republic?).
    If you are defining poor as people who make less than the $400k which I suggested by the standard exemption/deduction per income earner, then most employers are indeed poor. I would be one of those poor employers.

    But I am not suggesting what you are asking me. I did say that it would be my desire for the tax rate to be as low as possible. Taxation isn't about penalizing anyone, or government control of resources. In a country where the government issues it's own currency, taxation only exists to keep inflation in-check.
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

  2. #352
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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by imagep View Post
    You forget that for the majority of the existence of this country, we had no federal income taxes. Now use some logic here, now that we have income taxes, is our government smaller than it was when we had no income taxes?

    History has proven your theory to be incorrect. But nice try, your argument would fool a lot of weaker minded folks who don't know anything about history, or logic.
    Our federal spending, inflaatiopn adjusted, per capita is growing as is our national debt. Your silly idea that federal spending is not increasing with a very progressive income tax is what history shows to be false.

    The Rise in Per Capita Federal Spending | Mercatus

    The Most Depressing Graph: Per Capita Federal Spending Rises Alarmingly: Update | William M. Briggs
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by imagep View Post
    If you are defining poor as people who make less than the $400k which I suggested by the standard exemption/deduction per income earner, then most employers are indeed poor. I would be one of those poor employers.

    But I am not suggesting what you are asking me. I did say that it would be my desire for the tax rate to be as low as possible. Taxation isn't about penalizing anyone, or government control of resources. In a country where the government issues it's own currency, taxation only exists to keep inflation in-check.
    I am not suggesting that well over 90% (those making under $400K/year) are poor. That nonsense is your idea. Simply because one is not rich does not make them poor. Federal spending is now rising without any need to increase tax revenue yet somehow that does not cause your predicted inflation.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  4. #354
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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by distraff View Post
    What can people do to make their situation better?
    A study was done on how to stay out of poverty. Basically: Stay in school, get married, don't have kids before getting married, and a job. Doesn't have to be a high paying job.

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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Our federal spending, inflaatiopn adjusted, per capita is growing as is our national debt. Your silly idea that federal spending is not increasing with a very progressive income tax is what history shows to be false.

    That wasn't what I said.

    You said that if most people didn't have to pay income tax, that the people would demand more benefits and spending from government. I pointed to the fact that when we didn't have an income tax at all, we also didn't have as much government spending or benefits as we do today. Your assumption is therefore proven invalid by history.
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

  6. #356
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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    I am not suggesting that well over 90% (those making under $400K/year) are poor. That nonsense is your idea. Simply because one is not rich does not make them poor. Federal spending is now rising without any need to increase tax revenue yet somehow that does not cause your predicted inflation.
    You were arguing that only the rich create jobs, or at least that's the way I take it. The reality is that those who make less than $400k/yr actually own the majority of our employers. That $400k amount roughly represents the bottom 99%, not the bottom 90%.
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

  7. #357
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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by avery45 View Post
    A study was done on how to stay out of poverty. Basically: Stay in school, get married, don't have kids before getting married, and a job. Doesn't have to be a high paying job.
    Yes that will keep you out of poverty. However even middle class wages have stagnated. Historic wage increases for the middle class are over. Most economic growth goes to the rich.

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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Our federal spending, inflaatiopn adjusted, per capita is growing as is our national debt. Your silly idea that federal spending is not increasing with a very progressive income tax is what history shows to be false.

    The Rise in Per Capita Federal Spending | Mercatus

    The Most Depressing Graph: Per Capita Federal Spending Rises Alarmingly: Update | William M. Briggs
    You are right that the government is getting bigger and bigger but you are wrong about the type of government that is growing and your statistics are flawed.

    Per Capita government spending is rising because per capita income is rising in the US. The best way to look at things is to look at government spending as a percent of the GDP. So lets look at that.

    Federal Spending has been hovering around 20% of the GDP since the middle 1970s.
    usgs_chartSp03f.png

    However when we account for State and Local spending too we find that total government spending has been hovering around 35% since 1990. But up until 1990 there was a rapid rise in government and that rise may start picking up again.
    usgs_chartSp03t.png

    Source:
    US National Spending by Year - Charts Tables History

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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by distraff View Post
    You are right that the government is getting bigger and bigger but you are wrong about the type of government that is growing and your statistics are flawed.

    Per Capita government spending is rising because per capita income is rising in the US. The best way to look at things is to look at government spending as a percent of the GDP. So lets look at that.

    Federal Spending has been hovering around 20% of the GDP since the middle 1970s.
    usgs_chartSp03f.png

    However when we account for State and Local spending too we find that total government spending has been hovering around 35% since 1990. But up until 1990 there was a rapid rise in government and that rise may start picking up again.
    usgs_chartSp03t.png

    Source:
    US National Spending by Year - Charts Tables History
    Yet median personal income has only doubled since 1950 while government spending has grown far more than that.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pers..._United_States
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  10. #360
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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Yet median personal income has only doubled since 1950 while government spending has grown far more than that.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pers..._United_States
    My figures that income into account. That is why taking government spending as a percent of the GDP is the most useful was of looking at government spending. It looks at how much the government has grown compared to how much the economy has grown. The federal government grew until 1975. After that it has not really grown overall.

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