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Thread: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

  1. #251
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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Your statement was galactically ridiculous, and you know it.
    Are you even able to explain what's "galacticly" ridiculous about my post without resorting to straw men?

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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    That's right but he was also, largely, a self made man. We can see repeatedly that being a Presidents son, governors son or any prominent person's son doesnt guarantee sucess. Certainly it may offer a step in the right direction but after that they're on their own. There are many, the current President included, who are successful without that start. The difference lies in taking any opportunity and dedication to hard work and an education. The education can often take many forms.
    Mitt Romney - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    That's all true, but you really have to acknowledge all the advantages that being born rich provides. His world class education was paid for so he graduated debt free. He'd grown up the son of a CEO and Governor, so was trained from an early age how to interact with the very top sliver of society. He started his career with invaluable contacts, and many more that he didn't know were a phone call away. Failure is also not a big deal when you have a huge, cushy safety net, which is your wealthy family to fall back on. He could go years with no income from the business and rely on family support to pay all his essential bills. If he went bankrupt, he never had to worry one second whether he'd have a roof and food for his wife and kids.

    Yes, he deserves a great amount of credit for the hard work he did, and the success he had at multiple stops. But I think the point in this context is similarly talented individuals without a wealthy CEO/Gov for a father would have had a FAR tougher time doing what he did.

    And Bill Gates and partners did it largely on their own. They took advantage of an opportunity, one that IBM itself missed out on. Bill Gates - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    It's the same story but less obvious. Would Bill Gates have become Microsoft were he born in the inner city and attended crap schools with a mother who never got her GED? We'll never know. He's an exceptional enough person that it's absolutely possible, but certainly by no means assured, especially if at a young age his biggest concerns were gang bangers on the corners and how to get home without getting killed, or whether he had to take a full time job at 17 to take care of his ailing mother and sister.... Not a lot of time to ponder on the future of technology in those circumstances.

    Is being "Uberrich" really that important? Has that become the meaning of life? Whatever happened to genuine spirituality and fulfillment from other aspects of being?
    Not to me, but what is important is a job that pays for the basics - food, shelter, healthcare, education for your children, an occasional vacation, and a stable retirement. I've seen several studies that show VAST improvements in happiness to that point, and just small, marginal gains after.

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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Why does this plant close and why are they moving elsewhere? That's what everyone should be asking themselves.
    $1 an hour pay, no unions, if unions try to start you hire muscle to kill them or beat them and no one cares, no work safety rules, house them in a decrepit building with no fire escapes, sprinkler so a fire or building collapse kills them all, poison the workers with industrial chemicals and early deaths no problem, dump your waste untreated into the river out back, rely on energy from unscrubbed coal that results in pollution so thick you can't see 1/4 mile on a clear day. Anything I'm missing?

    There isn't much you can do. The glory years are over and the world has become more competitive. That's just the way it is.
    But our GDP per capita keeps going up and up. There isn't any reason but the rules of the game that those increases must go to the top sliver, with nothing trickling down to the bottom. And I can't imagine it's sustainable. Last time we had inequality this large and growing, we had the union movements, people protesting in the streets, violent confrontations with company supporting police and our military, etc.
    Some countries, and people, can adapt to the modern world while others cannot, and governments are limited in what they can do. The US has always prided itself on hard work and initiative but that idea now appears old-fashioned and a more collective society has emerged, encouraged by politicians who say they can offer programs in order to turn things around. Many people still believe that in fact and ask themselves why the government doesn't do something.
    There isn't any evidence Americans aren't working hard. We work more hours per week, and have fewer vacation days and sick days than any other industrialized country. And there isn't any evidence of less "initiative" - what kind of "initiative" did it take to work the 90% of jobs that paid wages to a single earner sufficient to raise a family a few decades ago and living standards should have risen since then with the rise in productivity and GDP per capita?
    The idea has always been to work your way up or be satisfied with your position in life and find happiness in other areas. There is nothing demeaning in stocking shelves anyway. Honest work is often its own reward.
    There isn't anything demeaning about the work, a person just cannot afford food, shelter, healthcare on the wages paid. That's the point. If the job doesn't pay enough for that, then society (taxpayers) will kick in the remainder, somehow.

    That's largely why family, relationships, and good planning are important. Realizing you're largely on your own in this world and to take responsibility for your life is the first step toward genuine freedom. I, like many others, have profited greatly from 'the kindness of strangers' and have given kindness in return. The government often ruins those human relationships.
    It's nice but not actually an answer. By definition the 90% of waitresses not extraordinary have kids that get sick. What happens when they do get sick? Wish for charities to emerge to help them out? And in the meantime what do they do with their sick child or their own diabetes, or heart disease?

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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Are you even able to explain what's "galacticly" ridiculous about my post without resorting to straw men?
    Sure, when you single Fox out as having CORPORATE talking heads. Like every other network has volunteers, or talking heads that are altruistic somehow. I suppose it's easy to label everything you don't like a strawman. Dude, admit you went over the top with your corporate crap. They are all paid by corporations, every news network is a business, and Fox isn't anymore so than any other.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country spoke, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Sure, when you single Fox out as having CORPORATE talking heads. Like every other network has volunteers, or talking heads that are altruistic somehow. I suppose it's easy to label everything you don't like a strawman. Dude, admit you went over the top with your corporate crap. They are all paid by corporations, every news network is a business, and Fox isn't anymore so than any other.
    It is Fox's corporatism combined with their conservatism that will predictably push them toward the "class warfare" narrative every time. Just as the first conservative to participate in this thread, and nearly all others that followed, framed wealth inequality in terms related to "class warfare" (he used "wealth redistribution). It's a corporatist/conservative mix, because if you don't muddy the issue with other factors (such as bringing liberal vs. conservative institutions into the topic) every conservative theme will favor the interests of the rich/business over the interests of the poor/employees.
    Last edited by Cardinal; 06-12-15 at 10:56 AM.

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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    It is Fox's corporatism combined with their conservatism that will predictably push them toward the "class warfare" narrative every time. Just as the first conservative to participate in this thread, and nearly all others that followed, framed wealth inequality in terms related to "class warfare" (he used "wealth redistribution). It's a corporatist/conservative mix, because if you don't muddy the issue with other factors (such as bringing liberal vs. conservative institutions into the topic) every conservative theme will favor the interests of the rich/business over the interests of the poor/employees.
    Oh, a double down moment. Sorry, but this is nothing but conjecture.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country spoke, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    When it comes down to it forced wealth redistribution ( theft ) is basically all the left have left as a economic plan for growth.

    Its their solution to a problem they made much worse and if its ever implemented it will backfire on the Middle class in epic proportions.
    Why is it with people such as yourself that when tax rates are changed to favor the wealthy it is ok with you and even encouraged. When tax rates are changed to favor the middle/working class....its "wealth redistribution" and "theft"? Seriously.....I want to know.

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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    It is Fox's corporatism combined with their conservatism that will predictably push them toward the "class warfare" narrative every time. Just as the first conservative to participate in this thread, and nearly all others that followed, framed wealth inequality in terms related to "class warfare" (he used "wealth redistribution). It's a corporatist/conservative mix, because if you don't muddy the issue with other factors (such as bringing liberal vs. conservative institutions into the topic) every conservative theme will favor the interests of the rich/business over the interests of the poor/employees.

    Yep.....just like they love to push the narrative that it is Unions and public employees that are responsible for economic woes. They are the ones who are driving the "class warfare" agenda because it feeds their sheeple the lines that they want to hear.

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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    That's all true, but you really have to acknowledge all the advantages that being born rich provides. His world class education was paid for so he graduated debt free. He'd grown up the son of a CEO and Governor, so was trained from an early age how to interact with the very top sliver of society. He started his career with invaluable contacts, and many more that he didn't know were a phone call away. Failure is also not a big deal when you have a huge, cushy safety net, which is your wealthy family to fall back on. He could go years with no income from the business and rely on family support to pay all his essential bills. If he went bankrupt, he never had to worry one second whether he'd have a roof and food for his wife and kids.
    If I may say so you really should read the Wiki biography link I provided so you can see that he is largely a self made man who has worked hard, created thousands of jobs, helped the poor and raised a wonderful family. He deserves whatever success he owns.
    Yes, he deserves a great amount of credit for the hard work he did, and the success he had at multiple stops. But I think the point in this context is similarly talented individuals without a wealthy CEO/Gov for a father would have had a FAR tougher time doing what he did.
    A tougher time perhaps, but the number of self made people, like Carly Fiorina for example, shows that success from a small start can still be had. There are still thousands of opportunities around and some people can see them while others can't. That's where the real difference lies.
    It's the same story but less obvious. Would Bill Gates have become Microsoft were he born in the inner city and attended crap schools with a mother who never got her GED? We'll never know. He's an exceptional enough person that it's absolutely possible, but certainly by no means assured, especially if at a young age his biggest concerns were gang bangers on the corners and how to get home without getting killed, or whether he had to take a full time job at 17 to take care of his ailing mother and sister.... Not a lot of time to ponder on the future of technology in those circumstances.
    We'll never know but we do that that was the case with Dr.Ben Carson, another Presidential candidate. It's not up to the government to make people successful, it's up to the individual. Getting there is no secret to those who have made it but those who haven't made think there is some mystery involved, some trick that they don't quite understand. But there is no trick. Work hard, work smart, plan ahead, and watch for opportunities. Do that and success is more likely.
    Not to me, but what is important is a job that pays for the basics - food, shelter, healthcare, education for your children, an occasional vacation, and a stable retirement. I've seen several studies that show VAST improvements in happiness to that point, and just small, marginal gains after.
    None of that is guaranteed and we should not be fooled into thinking it will ever be so. We are having to make cultural sacrifices in order to try to maintain these expectations with the assumption that those being introduced to the democracies will carry on with the same work ethic and traditions that our forefathers had. That's a leap of faith and one that has little credibility. We always have to watch for and rely on ourselves and not trust the politicians to guarantee a constant money supply.

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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Why is it with people such as yourself that when tax rates are changed to favor the wealthy it is ok with you and even encouraged. When tax rates are changed to favor the middle/working class....its "wealth redistribution" and "theft"? Seriously.....I want to know.
    "The wealthy already pay a larger proportion of taxes than the rest of society. Of course you can tax them higher, in which case they may just go elsewhere, or you can cut expenses and waste in government in order that the wealth can be spread around more eqally.

    The thing is that people often vote for larger government thinking others will pay for it, or the government is some benevolent group that can give them others people money without consequences. Then they wonder why businesses move offshore, curtail investment, or go to a more business friendly environment.

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