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Thread: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

  1. #181
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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Guy, Belgium is not a nation built on heavy industries and a powerful military-industrial complex. If "productive" is what you're looking for, then look at Australia. Or Japan. Or South Korea. Or (and especially) Germany. Are you going to tell me that the people in these nations are so coddled by the government that they've become complacent?

    Please, try to refrain from cherry-picking - it's doing you no good at all, and it's easily shot down.
    What percentage of their gdp do each of those countries spend on defense?

    Do you think any of those countries could defend themselves if they didn't have the USA protecting their ass?

    So only so much money around....the question becomes what do you spend it on?

    Protecting the rest of the world....which we have been doing for 100 years......

    you cant do both......
    “Most of the shadows of this life are caused by standing in one's own sunshine.”

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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by sawdust View Post
    I believe that the Bush tax cuts sun settled during Obama's first term. Economic freedom also tracks regulation and this administration is the most regulatory administration in my memory. The only thing that rivals is was FDR's failed NRA.
    Other than Obamacare, can you list a few of those regulations and explain how they have restricted your personal economic freedom?
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    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by imagep View Post
    Other than Obamacare, can you list a few of those regulations and explain how they have restricted your personal economic freedom?
    Report: 21,000 regulations so far under Obama, 2,375 set for 2015 | WashingtonExaminer.com
    "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury." Attributed to Alexander Tytler

  4. #184
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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    The question is whether it is possible/reasonable to create/encourage competition in healthcare to a level which lowers the prices enough.

    Another big cost is medical equipment prices, I understand - another somewhat monopolized area.


    One thing I heard/read made me wonder whether it's possible to fix something with our current system - apparently the original Affordable Care Act was going to have provisions that allowed the administrators to make offers/price suggestions to drug companies and the like - but that was nixed and instead they went with the current system, wherein drug companies tell the Government how much they will be paid for a given item.

    No negotiation, basically. Or at least it sounded like that. From a half-remembered radio interview.
    Obamacare was written by the insurance companies because they envisioned more customers. The last thing in the world they want is competition. The whole thing needs to go.
    "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury." Attributed to Alexander Tytler

  5. #185
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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by imagep View Post
    If that's the case, then no one did, because I certainly did not.
    No you did not, someone else posed a question...and you missed it.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    First of all, the statement was that anyone can become rich, which is false.

    Also, the moved goal post is a straw man, of course. We're not talking about "rich" - we're talking about decades of stagnant income for the vast majority, soaring income and wealth for a few at the top that has resulted in a shrinking middle class, which I'd define as able to work a normal job, and afford healthcare, education including college for your children, vacations and a secure retirement.

    And society's "responsibility" is in my view to set the rules of the game (the "market") so that we have broad prosperity, and the entire income scale shares in the gains of productivity, rising GDP, national wealth. Unfortunately there isn't (to my knowledge) any example anywhere in history of a 'natural' large middle class. A couple of others are discussing this in this thread - but if you find a large and prosperous "middle class" what you also find are strong government, progressive taxes, and a fairly significant amount of income "redistribution" either directly such as through national healthcare and income guarantees of sorts (welfare, EITC, food stamps, rent subsidies in the U.S., etc.) and likely some form of wage supports such as through unions or minimum wages and the like.

    I think that's entirely appropriate. Government doesn't exist to maximize GDP or the S&P 500. It serves the U.S. - 350 million or so individuals, and the economic policy should focus on the broad population.

    If you have any examples otherwise, I'd love to learn something new this week!
    The examples are all the people that were born with "nothing" in this country who became rich. Carson, Clinton and Fiorina are recent blaring examples.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    The examples are all the people that were born with "nothing" in this country who became rich. Carson, Clinton and Fiorina are recent blaring examples.
    That proves nothing - surely you understand this. Of course exceptional individuals can rise above poverty and become successful/wealthy. That a few truly exceptional individuals can doesn't prove anything except that those who are exceptional - in the cases you mention the top 1/10,000th or so - can succeed. I don't know their IQ scores, but I'm confident they're all in nosebleed territory. How about a person with an 87 IQ or with other mental or physical illness/limitations? No amount of effort or willpower or hard work turns them into a brain surgeon, or a politician with the skills of Clinton, or CEO material. The economy should work reasonably well for them and ordinary Americans who just by definition and the reality of the history of the entire human race will not and cannot be expected to become CEO or brain surgeon.

  8. #188
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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by gdgyva View Post
    What percentage of their gdp do each of those countries spend on defense?

    Do you think any of those countries could defend themselves if they didn't have the USA protecting their ass?

    So only so much money around....the question becomes what do you spend it on?

    Protecting the rest of the world....which we have been doing for 100 years......

    you cant do both......
    You didn't answer the question. You wanted to judge a country by how productive its people are, and you pointed to Belgium. I simply pointed out to you Australia, Japan, South Korea, and Germany...and you know very well that these are all very productive people. You also know that the past generations of socialized democracy has not changed their national character. This obviously means that lowering the income inequality does NOT automatically result in a people becoming lazy.

    THAT, sir, is the issue.

    And your claim about national defense doesn't work, either - because if you'll check, nations whose people are naturally industrious remain industrious regardless of what kind of government they have. This was true with Japan and Germany. This is also true (in a less complimentary way) towards other nations like, say, Italy, or Egypt, or Mexico.
    “To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what he’s doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    You didn't answer the question. You wanted to judge a country by how productive its people are, and you pointed to Belgium. I simply pointed out to you Australia, Japan, South Korea, and Germany...and you know very well that these are all very productive people. You also know that the past generations of socialized democracy has not changed their national character. This obviously means that lowering the income inequality does NOT automatically result in a people becoming lazy.

    THAT, sir, is the issue.

    And your claim about national defense doesn't work, either - because if you'll check, nations whose people are naturally industrious remain industrious regardless of what kind of government they have. This was true with Japan and Germany. This is also true (in a less complimentary way) towards other nations like, say, Italy, or Egypt, or Mexico.

    sawdust picked Belgium....not me

    please reread what i wrote......

    we...the USA spend a lot of our GDP on national defense

    name one other industrialized country that spends anywhere close to what we spend.....and what does their economy look like?

    at times, decisions are made about what to spend money on....what to prioritize....defence has always been at the top of the list for us

    that is VERY different from Germany, Japan, Belgium, France, or any other country you want to compare us to

    that was my point....my only point

    is that right or wrong? that is the question i think we will soon have to ask ourselves

    do we continue to protect the South Korea's, the Germany's, and other countries......

    or do we put that money to work here in the USA....and let the other nations fend for themselves
    “Most of the shadows of this life are caused by standing in one's own sunshine.”

    Ralph Waldo Emerson

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    Re: Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    That proves nothing - surely you understand this. Of course exceptional individuals can rise above poverty and become successful/wealthy. That a few truly exceptional individuals can doesn't prove anything except that those who are exceptional - in the cases you mention the top 1/10,000th or so - can succeed. I don't know their IQ scores, but I'm confident they're all in nosebleed territory. How about a person with an 87 IQ or with other mental or physical illness/limitations? No amount of effort or willpower or hard work turns them into a brain surgeon, or a politician with the skills of Clinton, or CEO material. The economy should work reasonably well for them and ordinary Americans who just by definition and the reality of the history of the entire human race will not and cannot be expected to become CEO or brain surgeon.
    Yeah, it proves everything.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

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