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Thread: US military pilots complain hands tied in ‘frustrating’ fight against ISIS

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    Re: US military pilots complain hands tied in ‘frustrating’ fight against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    And I think "have a process to verify a target before dropping a bomb" is reasonable, don't you?
    That depends on what that "process" is. If it required four hours' worth of obtaining approvals from one commander after another, for example, it would be a prescription for never attacking anything, because every time, the aircraft would run out of fuel before approval could be obtained and have to return to base. No doubt that kind of flaccid inaction would please Americans whose sympathies lie more with Muslim jihadists than with the country they are taking up space in. Like their president's fellow anti-Semitic statist Jeremiah "God Damn America" Wright, these drones loathe most things about this country and believe it is to blame for jihadism. For them, 9/11 showed that "America, your chickens have come home to roost."

    The inhabitants of cities that shelter the enemies of this country can expect that some of them will be killed when our forces attack those enemies. That would be true even if the locals were completely friendly to us--about 40,000 French civilians were unavoidably killed in the process of driving the Germans out of their country after D-day, for example. In this case, it is clear many of the locals are sympathetic to ISIS or are even abetting it. A few thousand irregulars, even if they use the most brutal techniques of intimidation imaginable, cannot possibly take and keep control of a city of a million people, or even a half-million, unless quite a few of the inhabitants are willingly sheltering them.

  2. #62
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    Re: US military pilots complain hands tied in ‘frustrating’ fight against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    And this wouldn't be one of them. Iraq is begging us to get more involved.
    The Iraqi government...the same group that is pretty much reviled by their own people, put into power by the US, and set the stage for ISIS taking over by severely crippling their military's capabilities and stoking the fires of sectarian divisions.

    Not when the population is unarmed and their opposition is conducting systemic bloody slaughter. The population of Ramadi is no more equipped to deal with ISIS than the German Jews were equipped to deal with Hitler.
    How exactly are they "unarmed". There are AK's floating around in that country by the boatload.

    Also....the situation with German Jews is nothing like ISIS in Iraq. The Jews were a minority in the country, we're talking about the "Iraqi people" here...we're talking 40 million or so people against a 30,000 or so ISIS guys. ISIS is not the German army either.

    These guys haven't been thrown out because the Iraqi population is largely unarmed and afraid, the Iraqi soldiers retreat because the military is woefully equipped and corrupt. On the one hand, absent US support in the early days of the invasion the Iraqi government consolidated their army around Baghdad, and left the peripheral troops with insufficient ammunition to hold off a siege. To make matters worse, when equipment was delivered to the outlying towns before the ISIS invasion it had a bad habit of finding its way to the black market.
    The "invasion" was a few thousands militants with mostly small arms...against a national army we trained for 10 years and supplied with weapons.

    The military was woefully equipped and corrupt...due to the actions by the same government we would be fighting to keep into power.

    he Iraqi military was undisciplined and at this stage fully dependent of US logistics. Absent these logistics the capability of the army quickly deteriorated.
    Where do you get this from? It's not like they were fighting against a well oiled military machine. They weren't up against a foreign military with resources to bare. Those foreign fundamentalist seem to get built up in the press here...they are a mob. They can blend in to the population around them but they are not some military juggernaut. The disposing of a few thousand militants should of been well within the resources and capabilities of the Iraqi army we left behind.

    ISIS has the advantage of being able to consolidate its firepower on individual objectives while the Iraqi force is tasked with protecting everywhere at once. In that kind of war the aggressor will always be on the march and the defender will always be caught off guard.
    ISIS has taken and held cities...which means they are stationing a decent amount of troops. They taking cities and locations to hold. If they were attacking and melding back into the population and taking soft targets that would be one thing, they are fighting and taking over whole cities. The Iraqi army is THAT BAD! If ISIS attempted this while US soldiers were there they would be obliterated.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: US military pilots complain hands tied in ‘frustrating’ fight against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Luftwaffe View Post
    A common misconception is that ISIS is an actual state with any sort of substantial territory.

    All they really have is a large area in which they conduct operations. The lands they truly control are few and far between.

    AOs =\= controlled land

    But some people will still take the rhetoric hook, line, and sinker. You just can't stop that.
    When US Conservative doesn't know what he is discussing, he uses big words and hopes nobody will catch him. A de facto state takes a little bit more than having control over an area. If all it took was occupying lands, we'd have quite a few 'de facto' states all over the world led by terrorist organizations. The notion that ISIL is a 'state' in anything other than name is pretty laughable. It's precious knowledge from Travis007's School For Kids Who Want To Learn to Know Jihad Good.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: US military pilots complain hands tied in ‘frustrating’ fight against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    They may not maintain credibility with YOU, but you aren't the one with a knife to your throat.
    U.S. Commanders will always have the responsibility of calling targets with the safety of civilians as a priority consideration. By law and morally. If that frustrates pilots, so be it.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: US military pilots complain hands tied in ‘frustrating’ fight against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    I hear another terrorist tried to strike in Boston today-likely the "JV" team.
    That is just awful.
    Boston allowing terrorists to operate in their city.
    Hopefully, Obama has the courage to order air-strikes on Boston.
    No matter how cynical I become toward politicians, it's never enough.

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    Re: US military pilots complain hands tied in ‘frustrating’ fight against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by radioman View Post
    That is just awful.
    Boston allowing terrorists to operate in their city.
    Hopefully, Obama has the courage to order air-strikes on Boston.
    Our president can't even admit theres a threat, let alone call out islamic terrorism by name. Reality is mugging him.

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    Re: US military pilots complain hands tied in ‘frustrating’ fight against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post

    If the Iraqi people hate Isis that much why exactly aren't they killing those guys? Why haven't they thrown those guys out? It's not as if ISIS is some powerful military machine. Why exactly should we swoop again after training the military that threw down their arms and installing the government that was very unpopular and act like this time will be different?
    This is the key point.
    We are furnishing what we are really good at--air power.
    That is a huge advantage for the forces fighting IS.
    Let the oppressed Iraqis overthrow their oppressors.....if they really want to.
    No matter how cynical I become toward politicians, it's never enough.

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    Re: US military pilots complain hands tied in ‘frustrating’ fight against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Think of them more like dog and pony show, for display purposes only bombs.
    And all the dead ISIS guys, also for display purposes?1
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Well, certainly the customer is not an N-word.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    You know her?

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    Re: US military pilots complain hands tied in ‘frustrating’ fight against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    The Iraqi government...the same group that is pretty much reviled by their own people, put into power by the US, and set the stage for ISIS taking over by severely crippling their military's capabilities and stoking the fires of sectarian divisions.
    Yep. So am I gathering form your argument that you posit the notion that maybe Iraqis enjoy being raped and murdered?

    How exactly are they "unarmed". There are AK's floating around in that country by the boatload.
    ISIS bans guns in the regions they have conquered and the people are defenseless against the brutal whims of ISIS.

    Also....the situation with German Jews is nothing like ISIS in Iraq. The Jews were a minority in the country, we're talking about the "Iraqi people" here...we're talking 40 million or so people against a 30,000 or so ISIS guys. ISIS is not the German army either.
    It's entirely the same thing. ISIS targets Christians and other non-Muslims first and then moves on to Muslims who to not follow the ISIS brand of Islam. This type of population control through fear is as old as humanity.

    The "invasion" was a few thousands militants with mostly small arms...against a national army we trained for 10 years and supplied with weapons.
    The defense forces of Mosul were ill equipped and the ISIS attack was well planned with coordinated suicide attacks against key defense positions and armories. Mosul also held many sleeper cells who aided in undermining defense attempts in the city.

    The military was woefully equipped and corrupt...due to the actions by the same government we would be fighting to keep into power.
    The alternative would be to let Iraq fall to ISIS. The Iraq forces were not prepared to mount an adequate defense across their entire boarder and lacked the intel and logistics that they had relied on the US for. It is entirely accurate to say that the Iraqi army was woefully equipped and corrupt. What I don't get is why that is used as justification for letting the Iraqi people, especially the Iraq minorities, be brutally murdered by ISIS.

    Where do you get this from? It's not like they were fighting against a well oiled military machine. They weren't up against a foreign military with resources to bare. Those foreign fundamentalist seem to get built up in the press here...they are a mob. They can blend in to the population around them but they are not some military juggernaut. The disposing of a few thousand militants should of been well within the resources and capabilities of the Iraqi army we left behind.
    They have toppled an army many times their size and grown on each victory, maybe you should stop parroting Obama's "JV" argument.

    They would be easily dispatched by US forces, but absent US forces the Iraqis are demonstrably unable to cope.

    ISIS has taken and held cities...which means they are stationing a decent amount of troops. They taking cities and locations to hold. If they were attacking and melding back into the population and taking soft targets that would be one thing, they are fighting and taking over whole cities. The Iraqi army is THAT BAD! If ISIS attempted this while US soldiers were there they would be obliterated.
    What you are missing in this scenario is that the Iraqi army has to defend all cities in Iraq from potential attack. I am not arguing that the Iraqi army is that bad, they obviously are. That is not an excuse for sitting by while ISIS takes over Iraq.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: US military pilots complain hands tied in ‘frustrating’ fight against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    And all the dead ISIS guys, also for display purposes?1
    Since ISIS is actually expanding, and since we aren't actually fighting to win-yes.

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