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Thread: China threatens nuclear war with U.S.

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    Re: China threatens nuclear war with U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by John V View Post
    Thanks Monte.
    One thing I forgot to mention is the level of nationalism. There is no flag burning, no left v right and no discussion or dissent. The CPC say go and all 1.3 billion go. It has a completely different mind-set to the west. You can destroy a country like that, but you can’t fight it. My point is not to promote China or argue superiority of either side; it’s to dispel the media and U.S. hawk myth that ‘confidence is high’ and that somehow China or Russia are still the old communist basket cases and will run at the sight of a U.S. carrier.
    Because of western militarism and sanctions, the outcome has pushed Russia, China and Iran into closer co-operation which is the exact opposite of what it wanted.
    There's no dissent in China, huh? You sure about that?

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    Re: China threatens nuclear war with U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by John V View Post
    I don’t post the links I use as irrefutable proof. I’d rather just write articles as essays, but doing that would have the Googler’s amongst you up in arms for lack of sources, because that’s where the vast majority now get information from and it’s why many threads start with a long quote followed by a sentence trying to explain it and asking for comment from others.
    That’s the nature of forums, so I include links, which might stimulate further interest and make people search for more information.

    The problem with links, as we’re now seeing, is that information then becomes secondary to the primary source. If someone gave links from ‘The Chinese Daily’, that would be seen as propaganda; whereas links from ‘Fox news’, would be seen by many as right wing lies and the posts then becomes more of an issue about sources rather than the topic itself. You can see this across any forum, as usually by about the third page the topic debate turns into a question of political stance and/or source links.

    Yet there are facts. Both the Russians and Chinese are challenging America dominance. The Chinese government has stated in its official news sources that China will fight if America interferes in the Islands disputes. Putin has said that he was prepared to use nuclear weapons over the Ukraine dispute. America is increasing its military presence in Asia and NATO is moving forwards near the Russian border. The question then is; what will happen? Will all this just fizzle out and everybody goes home in a compromise, or is all this a prelude to something much bigger.

    The opinions of, ‘Russia and China are weak’ or ‘They wouldn’t dare challenge America’ are both factually incorrect. Russia and China are just as capable of delivering ICBM’s into America, as America is to Russia and China. When superpowers fall out and all three are, this isn’t an Iraq scenario or a question of, ‘we’ll go in there and kick some ass.’ Russia has just introduced its fourth generation new class of silent submarines and China has produced its sixth generation of J-20 stealth fighter aircraft . . . neither country’s forces are running around with AK47’s or living in caves in Afghanistan.

    Attachment 67185134 Attachment 67185135

    My point is that an attack from just one of these Armageddon monsters puts any country back to prehistoric times and so for example, the comments of, ‘We’ve got more than they have’ misses the famous quote of Einstein, in which he said, “I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.” In other words, you don’t win fights against other superpowers.

    You can’t conquer either Russia or China with ‘boots on the ground’ and ‘shock and awe’ on their cities will produce the same on American cities. The problem generally with Americans in my opinion, is the notion that all wars are fought ‘over there’ and have come to resemble the entertainment value of a football match, or Cowboys v Indians in which the Cowboys always win. What America has to realise is that exceptionalism and patriotism is not just an American definition, but applies to how others also see themselves and so a compromise has to be reached, because if America keeps pushing and intruding on the spheres of influence of other superpowers, this isn’t going to end well.

    There we go; explanation, fact and opinion and not a link in sight.
    First, stating that your opinion is a fact does not make your opinion a fact. Neither does putting certain words in bold font make your opinion a fact.

    A fact would be something like Russia's military spending is a fraction of what it was during the good ole days if the USSR, which might lead one to logically conclude that Russia's military is aging and not up to the standards of years past.

    Nobody is saying a war with China or Russia would be easy. What we're saying is that a war with China is highly unlikely due to economic realities facing both sides.

  3. #143
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    Re: China threatens nuclear war with U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Very good as well! Yes, pushing and leaning on countries like Russia and China the way that we have been and insisting that neither of them have the will or capacity to respond is stupid, and just the thing that could find us in a situation we'd better avoid. USFP is unquestionably pushing Russia and China closer together. FDR waged an economic war with Japan (as well as other provocations) before they ended up striking out at us. It's alarming to me that US behavior in the WesPac is dismissed by the hawks. But China's not dismissing it at all. Troop placement in Australia for the first time since WW11, constructing a huge base in Guam, seeking the use once again of Vietnams deep water port, seeking to begin using Filipino military bases once again, conducting military exercises with our regional ally's in the SCS, flying unnecessary missions over Chinese operations in the Spratly's, moving aircraft carrier battle group to the region, all things that China feels it's being boxed in by.

    We're not "pushing and leaning" on China, for goodness sake. We made China rich. The USA getting involved in that part of the world is the best thing ever to happen to China.

    On December 7th, 1941, the United States was unexpectedly attacked by Japan. I can never hate on a pacifist, but you're deluding yourself if you believe the USA will ever put itself in a position again where our Pacific Front is wide open to attack.

    We will maintain a strong Pacific presence, whether that's in Okinawa, Philipines, Guam, etc. We will do what we can to ensure no one country has hegemony over the Asian Pacific. We will not allow Japan to attack China, or China to attack Japan, or anything else....but will require a balance.

    Most of all, we will never again allow an attack to come from the Pacific without us knowing of it well in advance. It would be foolish to cede the Asian Pacific to China or Japan, and wait for the warships to show up unannounced in Los Angelws before we act.

    WW2 and Pearl Harbor pretty much ensured that USA will be involved in that part of the world from now on.

  4. #144
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    Re: China threatens nuclear war with U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by John V View Post
    I don’t post the links I use as irrefutable proof. I’d rather just write articles as essays, but doing that would have the Googler’s amongst you up in arms for lack of sources, because that’s where the vast majority now get information from and it’s why many threads start with a long quote followed by a sentence trying to explain it and asking for comment from others.
    That’s the nature of forums, so I include links, which might stimulate further interest and make people search for more information.

    The problem with links, as we’re now seeing, is that information then becomes secondary to the primary source. If someone gave links from ‘The Chinese Daily’, that would be seen as propaganda; whereas links from ‘Fox news’, would be seen by many as right wing lies and the posts then becomes more of an issue about sources rather than the topic itself. You can see this across any forum, as usually by about the third page the topic debate turns into a question of political stance and/or source links.

    Yet there are facts. Both the Russians and Chinese are challenging America dominance. The Chinese government has stated in its official news sources that China will fight if America interferes in the Islands disputes. Putin has said that he was prepared to use nuclear weapons over the Ukraine dispute. America is increasing its military presence in Asia and NATO is moving forwards near the Russian border. The question then is; what will happen? Will all this just fizzle out and everybody goes home in a compromise, or is all this a prelude to something much bigger.

    The opinions of, ‘Russia and China are weak’ or ‘They wouldn’t dare challenge America’ are both factually incorrect. Russia and China are just as capable of delivering ICBM’s into America, as America is to Russia and China. When superpowers fall out and all three are, this isn’t an Iraq scenario or a question of, ‘we’ll go in there and kick some ass.’ Russia has just introduced its fourth generation new class of silent submarines and China has produced its sixth generation of J-20 stealth fighter aircraft . . . neither country’s forces are running around with AK47’s or living in caves in Afghanistan.

    Attachment 67185134 Attachment 67185135

    My point is that an attack from just one of these Armageddon monsters puts any country back to prehistoric times and so for example, the comments of, ‘We’ve got more than they have’ misses the famous quote of Einstein, in which he said, “I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.” In other words, you don’t win fights against other superpowers.

    You can’t conquer either Russia or China with ‘boots on the ground’ and ‘shock and awe’ on their cities will produce the same on American cities. The problem generally with Americans in my opinion, is the notion that all wars are fought ‘over there’ and have come to resemble the entertainment value of a football match, or Cowboys v Indians in which the Cowboys always win. What America has to realise is that exceptionalism and patriotism is not just an American definition, but applies to how others also see themselves and so a compromise has to be reached, because if America keeps pushing and intruding on the spheres of influence of other superpowers, this isn’t going to end well.

    There we go; explanation, fact and opinion and not a link in sight.


    Come back and tell us all about it after WWIII is over with.

    I suspect that the Russians and the Chinese won't be celebrating their victory.

    Lets wait and see, eh?

    Last edited by shrubnose; 06-02-15 at 12:11 PM.

  5. #145
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    Re: China threatens nuclear war with U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    We're not "pushing and leaning" on China, for goodness sake. We made China rich. The USA getting involved in that part of the world is the best thing ever to happen to China.

    On December 7th, 1941, the United States was unexpectedly attacked by Japan. I can never hate on a pacifist, but you're deluding yourself if you believe the USA will ever put itself in a position again where our Pacific Front is wide open to attack.

    We will maintain a strong Pacific presence, whether that's in Okinawa, Philipines, Guam, etc. We will do what we can to ensure no one country has hegemony over the Asian Pacific. We will not allow Japan to attack China, or China to attack Japan, or anything else....but will require a balance.

    Most of all, we will never again allow an attack to come from the Pacific without us knowing of it well in advance. It would be foolish to cede the Asian Pacific to China or Japan, and wait for the warships to show up unannounced in Los Angelws before we act.

    WW2 and Pearl Harbor pretty much ensured that USA will be involved in that part of the world from now on.
    To the bolded. It certainly was not unexpected for FDR!

    Pearl Harbour memo shows US warned of Japanese attack
    On the 70th anniversary of Pearl Harbour, the attack that propelled America into the Second World War, a declassified memo shows that Japanese surprise attack was expected.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...se-attack.html
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Advisor John V's Avatar
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    Re: China threatens nuclear war with U.S.

    ‘Yet there are facts. Both the Russians and Chinese are challenging America dominance. The Chinese government has stated in its official news sources that China will fight if America interferes in the Islands disputes. Putin has said that he was prepared to use nuclear weapons over the Ukraine dispute. America is increasing its military presence in Asia and NATO is moving forwards near the Russian border. The question then is; what will happen? Will all this just fizzle out and everybody goes home in a compromise, or is all this a prelude to something much bigger.’

    I look forward to reading more than a one line or sentence assessment, a short 1,000 words would be fine, not to many quotes and would exclude gems of information such as, ‘Come back and tell us all about it after WWIII is over with’, ‘indeed’ and ‘Just sit back and watch what happens.’ Google at the ready? Begin.

  7. #147
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    Re: China threatens nuclear war with U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    Come back and tell us all about it after WWIII is over with.

    I suspect that the Russians and the Chinese won't be celebrating their victory.

    Lets wait and see, eh?

    No shrub, let's just avoid that one, eh?
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: China threatens nuclear war with U.S.

    Wishful thinking, but imagine if the big three got together and co-operated, each assuming power within their own sphere of influence, a sort of international agreement between them. Each agreed to cut back forces to the minimum, reduce stockpiles and stop inventing bigger and better weapons system. Imagine the billions that would provide to spend on development and their populations. There’d be so much money sloshing around you wouldn’t know what to do with it all. Instead, the populations are left with food kitchens, mass unemployment and brag about who’s got the biggest ship and most nuclear warheads.

    Yes, it’s a bit ‘kumbaya’, wishful thinking, but the more we progress, aren’t we becoming more stupid?
    America currently spends an annual $ 610bn, (3.5 GDP) on military defence, China $ 216bn, (2.1 GDP) and Russia $ 84.5 (4.5 GDP) and that’s without the billions on continual technological development. Imagine that money spent on infrastructure, or medical care, or alleviating poverty. What a waste; why on earth do we cheer on our own destruction.

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    Re: China threatens nuclear war with U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I agree - and I'm assuming you meant North Korea, not the South, as the country to fear.
    yes i did mean north good catch.
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    Re: China threatens nuclear war with U.S.

    I'm reminded of this passage from President Kennedy's speech on the Cuban Missile Crisis:

    "Our policy has been one of patience and restraint, as befits a peaceful and powerful nation which leads a worldwide alliance. We have been determined not to be diverted from our central concerns by mere irritants and fanatics."

    We should take that same posture now, when responding to irritants.

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