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Thread: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty[W:203]

  1. #241
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    Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    1.)The largest problem at hand isn't false convictions, but executions as a result of those false convictions.
    2.) In any case, while I don't want to speak for Gaius I'm fairly certain the "fix" he's referring to is the ability to overturn a false conviction and give the rest of the victim's life back to him. If the victim has been executed, then there is no "rest of his life" to restitute.
    1.) I disagree i say its the false convictions first . . without them there is no next step . . life in prison or death sentence . . gotta start with bad domino number one. I also say that because the stats of false death convictions and the reality of most death row people die in prison and or are in there for 20+ years anyway
    I get what you are saying but I dont find that to matter in any significant way . . . .
    2.) I agree with your guess of what he is probably referring too but that ability to now free them is NOT a fix IMO in anyway what so ever. . .some people may feel its better but its not a fix
    Im just sayin im in jail for 20 years and then they release me NOTHING is fixed . . . yes im not "dead" but nothing is fixed . .

    lets go through a scenario

    its 1995 Say I'm 1995 in my first year of college
    my girlfriend is 20
    my brothers are 25 and 29
    my mom is 43 my dad is 53
    my one pap is 67 my grams are 66 and 77

    Im falsely convicted of armed robbery, kidnapping, attempted murder and murder (guy held up a store, cops showed up, they shot at him, he shot back, hit a cop but he didnt die, he killed the manager and escaped out the back with a lady clerk). . . .
    i get 35 years . . . but after 20 they figure out im innocent . . .now im 49 and the let me out . . . what is fixed? nothing . . .

    Im 49 with no education (unless i got one in jail which is unlikely) I've been rapped and beaten up for years, I have little to no family and friends if any at all, im 20 years disconnected, its now 2015, whats a smart phone? internet?
    my mom is alive but she is 63, my dad has passed he would have been 73
    grandparents passed except for one gram she is hangin on at 86! but she is in a home
    my girlfriend is gone, dont know where she is
    my brothers are 45 and 49, they have kids . . . .i dont really know them . . . most of them are graduated and in college themselves now, one died in a car accident

    so here i am . . . im out . . my mom still loves me, she always did believe i was Innocent . . .the rest of the family not so much . . i did get in to some light trouble when i was younger . . she says i can stay with her, she doesnt drive though she has problems with her legs, she is on disability . . .her neighbor drives her to pick me up . . .

    again so here i am . . living in my moms basement at 49, 20 years disconnected . . . time to get educated, learn a trade do something . . . .
    I start interacting with some people that hear the news . . . they say im different . . . like 20 years doesnt naturally do that to a person even with out the rapes, assults and losing 20 years of interaction . . .

    yes im so glad i was released and it was "fixed"

    see, the issue for me is nothing changes . . . . fix the false convictions and require a higher level of evidence for the death penalty . . abolishing it does very littler

    false convictions destroy a person . . . . its not "justification" for the death penalty just pointing out that the argument that it can be fixed is false
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  2. #242
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    Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) I disagree i say its the false convictions first . . without them there is no next step . . life in prison or death sentence . . gotta start with bad domino number one. I also say that because the stats of false death convictions and the reality of most death row people die in prison and or are in there for 20+ years anyway
    I get what you are saying but I dont find that to matter in any significant way . . . .
    Reforming an entire justice system that results in wrongful convictions is an overwhelming task that would require massive resources, grass-roots movements and campaigns that could take decades. An innocent person on death row can't wait that kind of time for massive advances in American society. It's much simpler to just ban the death penalty.

    2.) I agree with your guess of what he is probably referring too but that ability to now free them is NOT a fix IMO in anyway what so ever. . .some people may feel its better but its not a fix
    Im just sayin im in jail for 20 years and then they release me NOTHING is fixed . . . yes im not "dead" but nothing is fixed . .
    Um, okay. Sure, that twenty years is a bitch, but there is still technically more life to live. I have no idea what this has to do with the death penalty.

    lets go through a scenario

    its 1995 Say I'm 1995 in my first year of college
    my girlfriend is 20
    my brothers are 25 and 29
    my mom is 43 my dad is 53
    my one pap is 67 my grams are 66 and 77

    Im falsely convicted of armed robbery, kidnapping, attempted murder and murder (guy held up a store, cops showed up, they shot at him, he shot back, hit a cop but he didnt die, he killed the manager and escaped out the back with a lady clerk). . . .
    i get 35 years . . . but after 20 they figure out im innocent . . .now im 49 and the let me out . . . what is fixed? nothing . . .

    Im 49 with no education (unless i got one in jail which is unlikely) I've been rapped and beaten up for years, I have little to no family and friends if any at all, im 20 years disconnected, its now 2015, whats a smart phone? internet?
    my mom is alive but she is 63, my dad has passed he would have been 73
    grandparents passed except for one gram she is hangin on at 86! but she is in a home
    my girlfriend is gone, dont know where she is
    my brothers are 45 and 49, they have kids . . . .i dont really know them . . . most of them are graduated and in college themselves now, one died in a car accident

    so here i am . . . im out . . my mom still loves me, she always did believe i was Innocent . . .the rest of the family not so much . . i did get in to some light trouble when i was younger . . she says i can stay with her, she doesnt drive though she has problems with her legs, she is on disability . . .her neighbor drives her to pick me up . . .

    again so here i am . . living in my moms basement at 49, 20 years disconnected . . . time to get educated, learn a trade do something . . . .
    I start interacting with some people that hear the news . . . they say im different . . . like 20 years doesnt naturally do that to a person even with out the rapes, assults and losing 20 years of interaction . . .

    yes im so glad i was released and it was "fixed"

    see, the issue for me is nothing changes . . . . fix the false convictions and require a higher level of evidence for the death penalty . . abolishing it does very littler

    false convictions destroy a person . . . . its not "justification" for the death penalty just pointing out that the argument that it can be fixed is false
    Again, the "fix" isn't giving back to the victim the time that was lost. The "fix" is the overturning of the conviction, giving the victim another chance at life.

  3. #243
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    Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    1.)Okay so you don't like the word fixed. Substitute "minimization of damage done."
    2.)You have in no way invalidated the point.
    3.) Wrongful life in prison is bad. Wrongful execution is worse.
    4.)The system cannot be fixed.
    5.) No human system system can ever be perfect.
    6.) So the question really is what is an acceptable error rate. What is the acceptable cost in innocent humans executed to have a death penalty? Is it the current estimated 3-5%? 1%? 0.1%?


    What is acceptable to you?
    1.) has nothing to do with what i "like" its just factually wrong
    and your new selection is also false . . . the damage has not been minimized lol
    2.) actually i have, i have completely destroyed it because nothing is fixed, that point failed see post 241
    3.) thats your OPINION and its one i may agree with but it doesnt motivate me to abolish the death penalty in anyway only improve the system
    rape every day is bad, rape and murdered is worse in some peoples opinions . . yeaaaaaaa lol thats a VERY weak sale point . . .

    this product kills you. . . . this product only gives you penis cancer and cause you to go blind . . . .
    4.) wow thats HILARIOUS , , how do you know? you claim releasing person after decades of prison is a fix but there is no fix for our justice system? wow thats very disingenuous and biased . .
    5.) correct, good thing i never claimed that
    6.) don't know that too is subjective
    if what i said was actually focused on and done that would go down . .. like i said improve the system and require higher evidence . . in 2015 if done properly the errors could be near perfect

    how many innocent die cause of prescribed drugs, medical mistakes, transportation accidents, guns, knives, swimming? what is acceptable to you??
    how about your solution, we abolish the death penalty how many innocent people spending thier lives in jail is acceptable?

    your point has no validity accept by your own subjective standards .. . work on the system . . abolishing the death penalty in 2015 does very little
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  4. #244
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    Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    1.)Reforming an entire justice system that results in wrongful convictions is an overwhelming task that would require massive resources, grass-roots movements and campaigns that could take decades. An innocent person on death row can't wait that kind of time for massive advances in American society. It's much simpler to just ban the death penalty.
    2.)Um, okay. Sure, that twenty years is a bitch, but there is still technically more life to live.
    3.) I have no idea what this has to do with the death penalty.
    4.)Again, the "fix" isn't giving back to the victim the time that was lost. The "fix" is the overturning of the conviction, giving the victim another chance at life.
    1.) wow, who said all that? I didn't ask for a reform of the entire justice system . . .I agree that would be hard, thats why i never suggested it
    I simply said we can increase level of evidence needed for death sentences . . . why would that be any harder than abolishing the death penalty lol
    2.) yeaaaaaa . . whoopidy do . . if that happened to me i would feel so much better lol come one cardinal
    3.) easy it destroys the false argument things can be fixed . . thats what i was REALLY discussing . . what does abolishing the death penalty really fix . . . nothing really
    4.) and thats not a "fix" . . . .
    its simply ending the daily torture of a person . . but it doesnt fix anything
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    Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) wow, who said all that? I didn't ask for a reform of the entire justice system . . .I agree that would be hard, thats why i never suggested it
    I simply said we can increase level of evidence needed for death sentences . . . why would that be any harder than abolishing the death penalty lol
    2.) yeaaaaaa . . whoopidy do . . if that happened to me i would feel so much better lol come one cardinal
    3.) easy it destroys the false argument things can be fixed . . thats what i was REALLY discussing . . what does abolishing the death penalty really fix . . . nothing really
    4.) and thats not a "fix" . . . .
    its simply ending the daily torture of a person . . but it doesnt fix anything
    Your particular issue with the criminal justice system is off topic.

  6. #246
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    Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    1.)As I've pointed out several times already life in prison minimizes the damage done by wrongful convictions
    2.) while still having a functional criminal justice system.
    3.) Maybe I'm crazy but I expect most people would prefer to be released after 20 years than have the government tell their widow "hey sorry we screwed up"
    1.) but it doesnt "minimize" anything really
    2.) its already functional
    3.) maybe . . but thats not the issue . . the issue is false convictions . . thats an appeal to emotion . . i bet many would rather just be put to death then rapped and beat weekly, lose most of thier friends and family and then get out in the real world and have nothing
    that doesnt matter though . . the

    both cases the person is destroyed

    and in both case the government STILL has to say sorry we screwed up . . . if they even had a widow

    work on the system . . .

    I can honestly say i dont know what i would want . . . i would have to know every detail of my 20 years in prison and what happens when i get out

    maybe im crazy but i expect most people would simply not want to get falsely convicted at all
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    Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Your particular issue with the criminal justice system is off topic.
    no its not at all lol
    you are better than that

    the topic I was discussing was the claim that "abolishing the death penalty allows things to be fixed if there is a false conviction"...... that claim is false and my issue with the justice system is spot on on that topic . . .
    if you disagree simply tell me why its not on topic
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    Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    no its not at all lol
    you are better than that

    the topic I was discussing was the claim that "abolishing the death penalty allows things to be fixed if there is a false conviction"...... that claim is false and my issue with the justice system is spot on on that topic . . .
    if you disagree simply tell me why its not on topic
    You're wrong because you're fixating on the thing being fixed that no one else is talking about, which has been explained to you point-blank multiple times now. Complaining that a false conviction doesn't give back the time lost does nothing to address the problem of executions as a result of false convictions right now.

  9. #249
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    Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    1.)You're wrong because you're fixating on the thing being fixed that no one else is talking about, which has been explained to you point-blank multiple times now.
    2.) Complaining that a false conviction doesn't give back the time lost does nothing to address the problem of executions as a result of false convictions right now.

    so you CANT tell me why im not on topic? got it

    1.) really, so the posts i quoted just doet exist huh? i made it all up. A poster didnt make the false claim decades in prison could be "fixed" . . i guess somebody should go back and delete post 60 and 208 then LMAO sorry but im not wrong the claim was made and its false
    2.) never said I wanted it to give back time LOL please stick to things actually said and not make up strawman because just like the claim it could be fixed got destroyed any false claims or me wanting back time would be destroyed too

    abolishing the death penalty doesnt address the false conviction that are going on right now either . . .

    truth remains the claim that abolishing the death penalty "fixes it" is not a fact
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  10. #250
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    Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) has nothing to do with what i "like" its just factually wrong
    and your new selection is also false . . . the damage has not been minimized lol
    2.) actually i have, i have completely destroyed it because nothing is fixed, that point failed see post 241
    3.) thats your OPINION and its one i may agree with but it doesnt motivate me to abolish the death penalty in anyway only improve the system
    rape every day is bad, rape and murdered is worse in some peoples opinions . . yeaaaaaaa lol thats a VERY weak sale point . . .

    this product kills you. . . . this product only gives you penis cancer and cause you to go blind . . . .
    4.) wow thats HILARIOUS , , how do you know? you claim releasing person after decades of prison is a fix but there is no fix for our justice system? wow thats very disingenuous and biased . .
    5.) correct, good thing i never claimed that
    6.) don't know that too is subjective
    if what i said was actually focused on and done that would go down . .. like i said improve the system and require higher evidence . . in 2015 if done properly the errors could be near perfect

    how many innocent die cause of prescribed drugs, medical mistakes, transportation accidents, guns, knives, swimming? what is acceptable to you??
    how about your solution, we abolish the death penalty how many innocent people spending thier lives in jail is acceptable?

    your point has no validity accept by your own subjective standards .. . work on the system . . abolishing the death penalty in 2015 does very little
    You've not destroyed my argument. You've simply evaded it. Your entire hypothetical about what happens to you after 20 years in prison is completely irrelevant to this subject. It is relevant to a discussion of how the state should compensate wrongly convicted people and help them reintegrate into society by but it has nothing to do with a death penalty discussion.

    Similarly your arguments about what goes on in prison are appropriate to discussions on prison reform. They have nothing to do with the death penalty.

    No system will ever be perfect and with your comment that we need "to fix the system" you've implied one if two things:

    A. That the system can be made perfect or,
    B. That the error rate can be reduced to an acceptable level.

    Since you now claim that the system cannot be made perfect you must then believe that there is an acceptable error rate. What is it?

    No innocent should ever be jailed but it will happen because the system is and will always be flawed. Not killing them is just less bad than killing them. It sucks as a solution to improperly jailing people fir murder but it sucks less than killing them.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

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