• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Swiss Authorities to Investigate FIFA Over 2018 and 2022 World Cup Bids

Ben K.

DP Veteran
Joined
May 2, 2010
Messages
4,717
Reaction score
1,981
Location
Dublin, Ireland
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Cheers to the American and Swiss Governments.

Swiss officials rounded up six leading soccer officials in Zurich on Wednesday morning as a part of an operation that will likely see the suspects extradited to the U.S. on corruption charges,reports the New York Times. The arrests come just days ahead of the 65th congress of the sport’s global governing body FIFA, which is scheduled to commence in the Swiss city on Thursday.
Federal prosecutors in Switzerland have opened criminal proceedings related to the awarding of the 2018 and 2022 World Cups, and said they have seized “electronic data and documents” at the FIFA headquarters as part of the investigation. Police officials said 10 executive committee members who took part in the 2010 votes will be questioned. The U.S. Department of Justice has also unveiled an indictment against nine FIFA officials, including vice presidents Jeffrey Webb and Eugene Figueredo, and five corporate executives for racketeering conspiracy and corruption.



FIFA Officials Arrested on Corruption Charges
 
I am a bit torn about this.... and angry.

On the one hand, it is great that there is finally a real investigation into FIFA and corruption. It is time the top of world football is cleaned up. It wont get rid of Blatter though.

But that it is being lead by a US prosecutor does not exactly scream either legitimacy nor confidence as corruption is rampant in US business and political life and nothing happens there. Not to mention it took this long for them to do anything is kinda... FIFA kicked out the US member who admitted corruption like a decade ago, and the FBI only now does something.. come on.

On top of that, the fact that it took the actions of the FBI to kick the Swiss into action with their own investigation also pisses me off. People have been complaining for years but the Swiss have not done a thing. But then again no one in FIFA of the "rebels" have done a thing either when it comes to pushing for reforms or investigations outside FIFA.

I am afraid that the Swiss and US investigations especially into the Russia bid, will become geo-political big time and have absolutely nothing to do with corruption.. but everything to do with sticking it to Putin. The same goes somewhat for the Qatar bid. We all know how Russia got the WC, and it was open and transparent.

I hope that this will lead to reforms.. removing the UKs privileged status in FIFA, making elections more transparent and fair and basically making the whole organisation a true global one. Would also love to get rid of all these non-nations that are FIFA members and have "national teams".. totally screws with the over all power in the organisation.. all it is, is an attempt to give more power to specific nations. I mean what on earth does American Samoa, Gibraltar, Faroe Islands, British Virgin Islands, Cook Islands, and others have to do with sovereign nations? These places are full voting members of FIFA on the same level as Germany and Spain, but everyone knows that they are proxies for the US, UK and Denmark (Faero Islands), basically giving those countries far more power than they should have.

Now will reforms happen? Some how I doubt it as the "rebels" are being lead in large part by the English FA, who are not exactly the biggest reformers in world football and have been implicated in past corruption.. plus considering they sit on 2 to 3 board places in FIFA already, their motivation to actually reform FIFA might be more words than actual bark.
 
IMO, if the bids were, in fact, rigged, the 2018 and 2022 World Cups should be moved to the runner-up cities. That the scheduled host cities/countries incurred expenses in preparation would serve as a reminder that corruption doesn't pay and can actually be quite expensive. The individuals responsible should also be held fully accountable.
 
I am a bit torn about this.... and angry.

On the one hand, it is great that there is finally a real investigation into FIFA and corruption. It is time the top of world football is cleaned up. It wont get rid of Blatter though.

But that it is being lead by a US prosecutor does not exactly scream either legitimacy nor confidence as corruption is rampant in US business and political life and nothing happens there. Not to mention it took this long for them to do anything is kinda... FIFA kicked out the US member who admitted corruption like a decade ago, and the FBI only now does something.. come on.

If you believe the US is that corrupt what does that say about all the others who have done nothing so far?
 
If you believe the US is that corrupt what does that say about all the others who have done nothing so far?

Good question....

The history of combating corruption is not brilliant in many countries where FIFA has its power base. Guessing that is why FIFA has a power base in these places in the first place :) There is a reason that FIFA have their HQ and registration in Switzerland... they are not exactly know for their openness and accountability there.

The reason I am sceptical of the US involvement is basically the record of the US justice system on corruption and going after foreign vs domestic organisations and the basis on how they can go after FIFA in the first place. As far as I understand it, the US prosecutor sole jurisdictional basis for this corruption probe, is that some of the money involved went through US banks and technically bribes are illegal in the US (yea right). This is tricky as hell, because this excuse has been used before in cases that would only be prosecutable in the US, but no where else. For example, a Danish cigar seller buys Cuban cigars from a German whole seller.. the money goes from a Danish bank to a German bank, but because for some reason the money goes via New York, the FBI/Homeland seize the money as it is consider funding terror.. this is an actual case.

Basically I am such a big football fan, that I dont want any investigation into FIFA corruption to be based on questionable methods that could easily be used to discredit the investigation and result.

Ideally as I stated, the reforms and investigation should come from within, but that aint possible due to the way FIFA is set up.
 
FIFA is a totally discredited organisation. Organizing a world cup football in Qatar amounts to screaming out loud that you only care about money and bribes and have zero interest in football as a sport.
 
IMO, if the bids were, in fact, rigged, the 2018 and 2022 World Cups should be moved to the runner-up cities. That the scheduled host cities/countries incurred expenses in preparation would serve as a reminder that corruption doesn't pay and can actually be quite expensive. The individuals responsible should also be held fully accountable.

World Cup bids aren't to cities. Anyways, bids are usually awarded almost 8 years out for a reason. Most countries can't handle the infrastructure and logistics of setting this up overnight (~3 years).
There are about 5 or 6 countries that in theory could pick up 2018 right now, and about 2 or 3 if this drags more than a year. 1 if it drags to 2017.
 
Good question....

The history of combating corruption is not brilliant in many countries where FIFA has its power base. Guessing that is why FIFA has a power base in these places in the first place :) There is a reason that FIFA have their HQ and registration in Switzerland... they are not exactly know for their openness and accountability there.

The reason I am sceptical of the US involvement is basically the record of the US justice system on corruption and going after foreign vs domestic organisations and the basis on how they can go after FIFA in the first place. As far as I understand it, the US prosecutor sole jurisdictional basis for this corruption probe, is that some of the money involved went through US banks and technically bribes are illegal in the US (yea right). This is tricky as hell, because this excuse has been used before in cases that would only be prosecutable in the US, but no where else. For example, a Danish cigar seller buys Cuban cigars from a German whole seller.. the money goes from a Danish bank to a German bank, but because for some reason the money goes via New York, the FBI/Homeland seize the money as it is consider funding terror.. this is an actual case.

Basically I am such a big football fan, that I dont want any investigation into FIFA corruption to be based on questionable methods that could easily be used to discredit the investigation and result.

Ideally as I stated, the reforms and investigation should come from within, but that aint possible due to the way FIFA is set up.

It wasn't easy to find, but your main objection to the US involvement with this particular FIFA investigation is because the US reserves the right to intervene in transactions involving US currency? Heavy handed, no doubt, but jees, let it play out and see how it goes.
 
It wasn't easy to find, but your main objection to the US involvement with this particular FIFA investigation is because the US reserves the right to intervene in transactions involving US currency? Heavy handed, no doubt, but jees, let it play out and see how it goes.

Some people are just afflicted by kneejerk anti-Americanism. Often an incurable condition.
 
IMO, if the bids were, in fact, rigged, the 2018 and 2022 World Cups should be moved to the runner-up cities. That the scheduled host cities/countries incurred expenses in preparation would serve as a reminder that corruption doesn't pay and can actually be quite expensive. The individuals responsible should also be held fully accountable.

Too late to move the 2018 Cup. Not too late to yank the 2022 Cup from Qatar, which was a far more corrupt process.
 
World Cup bids aren't to cities. Anyways, bids are usually awarded almost 8 years out for a reason. Most countries can't handle the infrastructure and logistics of setting this up overnight (~3 years).
There are about 5 or 6 countries that in theory could pick up 2018 right now, and about 2 or 3 if this drags more than a year. 1 if it drags to 2017.

5 or 6? I suppose.

The U.S. could pick it up quick, but we don't have the goal-line tech set up here and that could take a while to get calibrated. We do, however, have the facilities. Brazil could theoretically host it again, since it's fresh off of last year's, as could South Africa, but there's zero chance of either happening. The UK and France could do it. Possibly Germany. That's it for 2018.
 
Too late to move the 2018 Cup. Not too late to yank the 2022 Cup from Qatar, which was a far more corrupt process.

I tend to agree. Given the pretty rampant corruption in Russia there was probably also corruption involved there. But at least Russia is less of an obviously wrongheaded choice to organize a world cup.
 
I tend to agree. Given the pretty rampant corruption in Russia there was probably also corruption involved there. But at least Russia is less of an obviously wrongheaded choice to organize a world cup.

Russia's not using slave labor and having hundreds of workers die every few weeks to construct the facilities.
 
Russia's not using slave labor and having hundreds of workers die every few weeks to construct the facilities.

No, they haven't carried their nostalgia for Stalin's regime quite that far yet.
 
It wasn't easy to find, but your main objection to the US involvement with this particular FIFA investigation is because the US reserves the right to intervene in transactions involving US currency? Heavy handed, no doubt, but jees, let it play out and see how it goes.

Yes and no. It has to do with the US reserves the right to intervene when money happens to go through US banks. I never said that the money in my example was US dollars.. it was not, it was Euros.

The points I am trying to make here.

1.) Trust in the US legal system aint exactly mind-blowing, especially when involving non-Americans. Rail-roading, breaking deals and worse are all too common place. Should I as a football fan trust that the US justice system wont screw this one up? That the people involved will just get a slap over the fingers like other corruption cases have given in the US?

For example, much of this corruption involves US companies.. why have they not been targeted and raided?

Look at this list... FIFA Partners (top top sponsors)

Adidas (German), Gazprom (Russia), Hyundai (South Korean) Coca Cola (US) and Visa (US)

Official World Cup Sponsors:

Bud (US.. well now Belgian-Brazilian, but when the sponsorship was started it was US)

and

McDonalds (US).

Why were there no raids on those HQs? They are most certainly involved. Will the US Justice Department actually go after those who gave the bribes as well as those that received them? They dont have a great track record against major US companies..

2.) That much of the world finance due to the Internet and communications happens to pass through a server or hub that is located in the US.. is that legal jurisdiction for the US to enforce its laws on the rest of the world? In this case it does smell like it is that case, but the information out there is a bit sketchy still. This is more a geo-political motive I admit, but it worries me that me buying something from a country that the US does not like, might mean the local police knock on my door to push a US warrant for something that is perfectly legal here. It has happened before.

Then there is the fact that places like the UK and others, aka "the rebels" in FIFA have been unable or unwilling to do anything about the corruption... also pisses me off.

Finally of course the Swiss.. protecting FIFA and other less than respectable peoples and organisations for 100+ years... dont get me started on them. I dont trust them one bit in getting to the bottom of this corruption.

In the end of the day.. I suspect that these guys might make a deal and the case will disappear.. because the money involved and the companies involved are too big to take down without massive political consequences for governments.
 
I tend to agree. Given the pretty rampant corruption in Russia there was probably also corruption involved there. But at least Russia is less of an obviously wrongheaded choice to organize a world cup.

No, the Russia World Cup was given in conjunction with a deal between FIFA members ... it is quite interesting actually because the US was involved in this "corruption".

Originally the bidding was open, but after some deal making, the 2018 cup was left to UEFA members only and the 2022 was left to Asian and North American members. This in turn basically made sure that Russia would get the bid because of the other countries bidding.

England was DOA.. England will most likley not get another World Cup any time soon. The English have simply pissed off too many people in FIFA over the years to be viable.

That left 2 joint bids and the attitude among many FIFA board members was and still is, that joint bids are not ideal. Russia was the only non joint bid, so of course Russia got over the line after the first round of voting where England was eliminated. Ironically it seems that the countries that voted for England, then voted for Russia.. odd considering.

So there basically could not be any corruption in this bidding process, other than the "deal" the US, Australia, Japan and others made in splitting the 2018 and 2022 between Europe and Asia/North America.
 
5 or 6? I suppose.

The U.S. could pick it up quick, but we don't have the goal-line tech set up here and that could take a while to get calibrated. We do, however, have the facilities. Brazil could theoretically host it again, since it's fresh off of last year's, as could South Africa, but there's zero chance of either happening. The UK and France could do it. Possibly Germany. That's it for 2018.

my list was USA, Germany, France, UK, barely Italy, and possibly Brazil
 
Yes and no. It has to do with the US reserves the right to intervene when money happens to go through US banks. I never said that the money in my example was US dollars.. it was not, it was Euros.

The points I am trying to make here.

1.) Trust in the US legal system aint exactly mind-blowing, especially when involving non-Americans. Rail-roading, breaking deals and worse are all too common place. Should I as a football fan trust that the US justice system wont screw this one up? That the people involved will just get a slap over the fingers like other corruption cases have given in the US?

For example, much of this corruption involves US companies.. why have they not been targeted and raided?

Look at this list... FIFA Partners (top top sponsors)

Adidas (German), Gazprom (Russia), Hyundai (South Korean) Coca Cola (US) and Visa (US)

Official World Cup Sponsors:

Bud (US.. well now Belgian-Brazilian, but when the sponsorship was started it was US)

and

McDonalds (US).

Why were there no raids on those HQs? They are most certainly involved. Will the US Justice Department actually go after those who gave the bribes as well as those that received them? They dont have a great track record against major US companies..

2.) That much of the world finance due to the Internet and communications happens to pass through a server or hub that is located in the US.. is that legal jurisdiction for the US to enforce its laws on the rest of the world? In this case it does smell like it is that case, but the information out there is a bit sketchy still. This is more a geo-political motive I admit, but it worries me that me buying something from a country that the US does not like, might mean the local police knock on my door to push a US warrant for something that is perfectly legal here. It has happened before.

Then there is the fact that places like the UK and others, aka "the rebels" in FIFA have been unable or unwilling to do anything about the corruption... also pisses me off.

Finally of course the Swiss.. protecting FIFA and other less than respectable peoples and organisations for 100+ years... dont get me started on them. I dont trust them one bit in getting to the bottom of this corruption.

In the end of the day.. I suspect that these guys might make a deal and the case will disappear.. because the money involved and the companies involved are too big to take down without massive political consequences for governments.

You are incorrect about the transaction taking place in Euros. As I said, it was hard to find the story you referenced: US snubs out legal cigar transaction | The Post. Personally I'd rather the US not do this, but at least complain about the facts of that case. Well, back to the case at hand:

Do you have anything other than innuendo to back up that the Sponsors did something wrong? FIFA has been screwing with sponsors as well: MasterCard, FIFA settle World Cup sponsor fight | Reuters. Can you identify any stories where the sponsors have done something wrong?

I think in this case, the US is the perfect stooge to do what the rest of the world hasn't done. Why? Because the US is big enough to matter in the world of FIFA but soccer isn't big enough to matter to the general US population. In other words, FIFA needs the US more than the US needs FIFA. How true is that for other countries?
 
I think they should exterminate soccer and replace it with real football or even rugby. Given it's lack of offence, it's probably the most over-rated 'sport' in history.
.
 
You are incorrect about the transaction taking place in Euros. As I said, it was hard to find the story you referenced: US snubs out legal cigar transaction | The Post. Personally I'd rather the US not do this, but at least complain about the facts of that case. Well, back to the case at hand:

I stand corrected.. still should not happen. The US dollar is the worlds currency and by doing this it just diminishes it.

Do you have anything other than innuendo to back up that the Sponsors did something wrong? FIFA has been screwing with sponsors as well: MasterCard, FIFA settle World Cup sponsor fight | Reuters. Can you identify any stories where the sponsors have done something wrong?

There has been several exposes that put FIFA sponsors in the centre of corruption. The latest is that that NIKE actually set the 1998 Brazil finals squad.. might be true, might not. Point is, in all the documentaries and studies done, FIFA sponsors are up to their eyeballs in being involved in the corruption. It is not "strange" that Gazprom happens to be a FIFA partner now.. Gazprom, who does not sell to the consumer in most countries.

I think in this case, the US is the perfect stooge to do what the rest of the world hasn't done. Why? Because the US is big enough to matter in the world of FIFA but soccer isn't big enough to matter to the general US population. In other words, FIFA needs the US more than the US needs FIFA. How true is that for other countries?

On this I actually agree... But again, the main concern for me is how the US justice system works in such high profile cases... or rather does not work. Look at the corruption with Libor.. slap over the fingers so far.. no one charged so far.. and the financial institutions involved who knew perfectly well that it was happening.. getting off cheaply. Do you really think a person like Jamie Diamond will get convicted, let alone arrested and charged for the libor scandal.. a scandal that his company was deeply involved in?

Having it in the US might be the best of all the evils so to say (think that is the saying).. not great, but better than other countries.
 
I am a bit torn about this.... and angry.

On the one hand, it is great that there is finally a real investigation into FIFA and corruption. It is time the top of world football is cleaned up. It wont get rid of Blatter though.

But that it is being lead by a US prosecutor does not exactly scream either legitimacy nor confidence as corruption is rampant in US business and political life and nothing happens there. Not to mention it took this long for them to do anything is kinda... FIFA kicked out the US member who admitted corruption like a decade ago, and the FBI only now does something.. come on.
......


Everyone knows that hosting the World Cup is and always has been only possible against bribes. We also know how successful EU countries have been at attracting them. We also know that they have not done anything about it, though, the suspicion bordered on certainty. Their judiciaries knew this and and did nothing, even when it was their own people that must have arranged for the payments.

But the FIFA stuff aside. That is only leisure fun and games. Coming from Europe, I do not think I would in your place rage over US corruption. I know that is a favorite and to say that one's own country is practically free of such slime. I remember Kohl once fuming like you are, when Airbus was caught bribing and another time, when a donor of his was fingered for building a chemical weapons factory in Libya. But I cannot really judge Denmark, but I can France, Spain and Germany quite well, indeed. If Denmark is at all like them, then you have a lot of work to do at home and in any event in the EU. So rant and rave about Blatter, if you want. But do something productive and don't point your moralizing finger at someone who is.
 
my list was USA, Germany, France, UK, barely Italy, and possibly Brazil

Brazil just had it, so that wont happen.. But some corrections here before the English and Scots start to attack!

It is England.. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland (and British Virgin Islands, Gibraltar and 5+ more "nations")... the UK does not exist in FIFA.

But countries that could take over easily are

France, Germany, England, Spain, Holland, Belgium, Italy, US, Japan and Australia. Portugal might manage it also. But I doubt it will happen, and unless there is absolute proof that there was corruption involved, then it should not happen.

I feel for the workers in Qatar, but that practice has been going on in the Arabian peninsula for almost 100 years and the fact that you have "cheap" oil today, is because of practices like this in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. You defended practices like this in Desert Storm.. your troops lived in bases built by "slave labour". So coming now and chastising Qatar for something that has been going on for 50+ years without a peep from the very same countries when it involved oil.. is just pathetic. Qatar is reforming but the rest of the countries are not.. funny how that goes eh? Where are the moaning about slave labour in Dubai? Or Kuwait? No where.
 
World Cup bids aren't to cities. Anyways, bids are usually awarded almost 8 years out for a reason. Most countries can't handle the infrastructure and logistics of setting this up overnight (~3 years).
There are about 5 or 6 countries that in theory could pick up 2018 right now, and about 2 or 3 if this drags more than a year. 1 if it drags to 2017.

Mental slip-up on my part. I was thinking the Olympics when referring to cities. Obviously, the winning bids being investigated by Switzerland concern Russia and Qatar. Your point about the infrastructure is a good one. Perhaps if a runner-up doesn't have the infrastructure in place or can't get it in place in time for 2018, assuming that bid was rigged, the World Cup should be moved to one of the most recent prior host countries. The 2022 World Cup is still seven years away, so it probably can be managed on a somewhat tighter than usual schedule.
 
Everyone knows that hosting the World Cup is and always has been only possible against bribes. We also know how successful EU countries have been at attracting them. We also know that they have not done anything about it, though, the suspicion bordered on certainty. Their judiciaries knew this and and did nothing, even when it was their own people that must have arranged for the payments.

You had me interested until you mixed the EU into this discussion..

But the FIFA stuff aside. That is only leisure fun and games. Coming from Europe, I do not think I would in your place rage over US corruption. I know that is a favorite and to say that one's own country is practically free of such slime. I remember Kohl once fuming like you are, when Airbus was caught bribing and another time, when a donor of his was fingered for building a chemical weapons factory in Libya. But I cannot really judge Denmark, but I can France, Spain and Germany quite well, indeed. If Denmark is at all like them, then you have a lot of work to do at home and in any event in the EU. So rant and rave about Blatter, if you want. But do something productive and don't point your moralizing finger at someone who is.

Again the EU....
 
You are incorrect about the transaction taking place in Euros. As I said, it was hard to find the story you referenced: US snubs out legal cigar transaction | The Post. Personally I'd rather the US not do this, but at least complain about the facts of that case. Well, back to the case at hand:

Do you have anything other than innuendo to back up that the Sponsors did something wrong? FIFA has been screwing with sponsors as well: MasterCard, FIFA settle World Cup sponsor fight | Reuters. Can you identify any stories where the sponsors have done something wrong?

I think in this case, the US is the perfect stooge to do what the rest of the world hasn't done. Why? Because the US is big enough to matter in the world of FIFA but soccer isn't big enough to matter to the general US population. In other words, FIFA needs the US more than the US needs FIFA. How true is that for other countries?

That's a good question, and one of my first thoughts was that soccer isn't all that big here.
 
Back
Top Bottom