• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South China

Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

You could say that. However, the US does have treaty obligations and that other thing I alluded to. You could consider those too if you actually take obligations such as those seriously. Consider for a moment what the disregard of treaty obligations on the part of the US might mean for England. You won't get much objection from us if you decide to go it alone. There are other issues as well, but I'm loathe to have to point them out.

But no ally has asked the US to uphold its treaty obligations here nor inferred that it needs to. The US seems to have taken it upon itself to provoke China over what is a regional storm in a teacup 8000 miles away. Why is it doing this ?
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Chinese propaganda notwithstanding, here is the US issue.

Defense secretary's warning to China: U.S. military won't change operations


The remarks came after recent warnings made by the Chinese navy to U.S. military aircraft over the South China Sea.
Craig Whitlock | National Security | May 28, 2015

"Defense Secretary Ashton Carter bluntly warned China Wednesday to stop its buildup of man-made islands in the South China Sea and vowed that the U.S. military would continue to patrol international waters and airspace in the region.

Carter’s comments, made at a ceremony in Hawaii to recognize Adm. Harry B. Harris, the new commander of U.S. military forces in the Pacific, further escalated a simmering rhetorical conflict between Washington and Beijing over access to the South China Sea and other Asian waters.
“There should be no mistake: the United States will fly, sail, and operate wherever international law allows, as we do all around the world,” Carter said at the U.S. military’s joint base at Pearl Harbor. . . . "



Carter says US flights, sea missions in Pacific will go on


Defense Secretary Ash Carter strongly defended America's right to fly over artificial islands that Beijing is building in the South China Sea, but gave few hints ahead of a visit to Asia this week about what the United States was willing to do to halt the construction effort.

". . . Carter responded to Chinese complaints about U.S. military flights over the projects by saying, “There should be no mistake in this, the United States will fly, sail and operate wherever international law allows.”
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Chinese propaganda notwithstanding, here is the US issue.

The point is Jack why is the US even doing this at all if not to simply provoke China ? Its regional allies have not requested its arbitration in their current dealings with China. Your government really needs to think about reining in its huge military who currently seem to be casting around the world looking for excuses to justify its bloated budgets, and if it can't find one it will make one :(
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

The point is Jack why is the US even doing this at all if not to simply provoke China ? Its regional allies have not requested its arbitration in their current dealings with China. Your government really needs to think about reining in its huge military who currently seem to be casting around the world looking for excuses to justify its bloated budgets, and if it can't find one it will make one :(

You need a little more background. Upholding freedom of navigation has been a core vital interest of the US since our country's founding. Remember the Barbary pirates? In the South China Sea the US is doing nothing it has not done for over 60 years.
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

The point is Jack why is the US even doing this at all if not to simply provoke China ? Its regional allies have not requested its arbitration in their current dealings with China. Your government really needs to think about reining in its huge military who currently seem to be casting around the world looking for excuses to justify its bloated budgets, and if it can't find one it will make one :(

While I agree and disagree with USFP, on this I do not.
Nope. The US is not looking for a war.

Philippines to seek US help in dealing with China over Spratlys issue -- DFA | Inquirer Global Nation
According to Del Rosario, “discussions on the Scarborough Shoal and West Philippine Sea issues will come up under the topic maritime security, where we certainly will be discussing freedom of navigation, unimpeded commerce and the safe transportation of people in the West Philippine Sea (South China Sea).”

Asked if they would ask the US government’s help in resolving the dispute, he said they “would want all nations, including the US, to make a judgment as to what’s happening there and what the implications are to their own countries.”

Philippines seeks help from U.S. in South China Sea dispute

MANILA (Reuters) - The Philippines is seeking more "substantive" support from its long-time security ally United States on how to counter China's rapid expansion in the South China Sea, the foreign secretary said on Wednesday.

China's rapid reclamation around seven reefs in the Spratly archipelago of the South China Sea has alarmed claimants, including the Philippines and Vietnam, and drawn growing criticism from U.S. government officials and the military.
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Double post
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

You need a little more background. Upholding freedom of navigation has been a core vital interest of the US since our country's founding. Remember the Barbary pirates? In the South China Sea the US is doing nothing it has not done for over 60 years.

That's your justification? They have done it for 60 years. No offense, but that means nothing.

If it meant something, then slavery, child sweatshops and no female voting would still be going on in America due to the justification 'well, it's been like this for hundreds of years - so it must be right'.

America has no business being there and the only reason she is is because the neocons in Washington are dying for a confrontation with China so as to have the excuse to get even more military funding out of taxpayers.


Good day.
 
Last edited:
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

From the OP article:

'The state-owned news agency Xinhua highlighted one particular phrase, which appeared in the “Strategic Guideline of Active Defence” section: “We will not attack unless attacked, but we will surely counterattack if attacked.”'

This is a non-story.

The Chinese said they will not attack first but will retaliate if attacked. How is this provoking anything?

What are they supposed to say; 'we won't attack first and we have will not retaliate if attacked'?

This is little more then an over-hyped story at this point.
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

That's your justification? They have done it for 60 years. No offense, but that means nothing.

If it meant something, then slavery, child sweatshops and no female voting would still be going on in America due to the justification 'well, it's been like this for hundreds of years - so it must be right'.

America has no business being there and the only reason she is is because the neocons in Washington are dying for a confrontation with China so as to have the excuse to get even more military funding out of taxpayers.

As already posted, freedom of navigation has been a core vital interest of the US since our country's founding. That is why we fly in international air space and why we sail in international waters. The sailing has been ongoing everywhere (including the South China Sea) for two centuries. That is not to cause trouble, but to exercise and thereby preserve free navigation rights for ourselves and others. If we concede to the Chinese on this then they will have effectively closed the area to free navigation.
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

It is not the Spratly’s. You refuse to look at the area claimed. You refuse to accept that China signed on to an agreement to address these issues.

It's not the Spratlys?!?! China is one of six nations that have overlapping claims to them. Do you understand that Taiwan also claims the entire Spratly archipelago? So where's that leave the other claimants, why aren't you angry at Taiwan? What do you want to see, the six countries draw straws. The big fuss at present is over China building up the existing islands and constructing infrastructure on them. I really don't know what you mean, but I've been focused on the Spratly (Paracels) the whole time.
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Funny that if China says it, its propaganda, if the US says it, hell, its gospel. What a patronising group.
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

I don't think Obama is prepared to engage militarily with China over Taiwan, so I don't thing we'll be in a fight with them over the Spratlys. We could contain their entrepreneurial exuberance in the South China Sea, though. They aren't building a military base just to defend a military base.

We will see.
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

It's not the Spratlys?!?! China is one of six nations that have overlapping claims to them. Do you understand that Taiwan also claims the entire Spratly archipelago? So where's that leave the other claimants, why aren't you angry at Taiwan? What do you want to see, the six countries draw straws. The big fuss at present is over China building up the existing islands and constructing infrastructure on them. I really don't know what you mean, but I've been focused on the Spratly (Paracels) the whole time.

Is Taiwan strong arming those other claimants? Nope
is Taiwan building in reef areas? nope
I asked why China does not avail themselves of the Treaty that governs this and to which the are a signatory. You never answered that.
I noted that china is claiming land, yep land, not just clearly territorial waters under the Convention but territory of Vietnam and Malaysia. You never answered that either.
You mentioned USFP. Yes they are not always right, lots of screwup to be truthful.
The countries involved signed an accord for joint discussion to settle the issue and that no one would build up in areas.
Malaysia and China have both done this.
China backed off on that agreement as well.
It is China that has caused this problem by their actions.

Yet you constantly defend China, even when they are clearly in violation of the Convention, and their complete disregard for past agreements.And screw the rest.
Who do you think small countries turn to in situations like this? The US.
The US has not broken any agreements, not violated any policies, not bullied their neighbors.

What you have happening is just a taste of what China will do in the coming years.
China still has territorial grievances with, guess who, Russia to begin with, India is another.
You bias on USFP is clearly coloring your judgement.

Yet you fault the US. Why?
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

You could say that. However, the US does have treaty obligations and that other thing I alluded to. You could consider those too if you actually take obligations such as those seriously. Consider for a moment what the disregard of treaty obligations on the part of the US might mean for England. You won't get much objection from us if you decide to go it alone. There are other issues as well, but I'm loathe to have to point them out.

Those treaty obligations aren't open on both ends. The Philippines for example can't reach out and poke a stick at China expecting the US to be there when China snaps back. Well, they can, and the US likely would be there, but that's not the intent or literal purpose of such agreements. Furthermore, such agreements exist to give countries the "cover" of legitimacy to militarily operations in places they want to be but otherwise couldn't defend the right to be.
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Funny that if China says it, its propaganda, if the US says it, hell, its gospel. What a patronising group.

Freedom of navigation has been a core vital interest of the US since our country's founding.
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Those treaty obligations aren't open on both ends. The Philippines for example can't reach out and poke a stick at China expecting the US to be there when China snaps back. Well, they can, and the US likely would be there, but that's not the intent or literal purpose of such agreements. Furthermore, such agreements exist to give countries the "cover" of legitimacy to militarily operations in places they want to be but otherwise couldn't defend the right to be.

We have those obligations because the other signatories want us there.
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Is Taiwan strong arming those other claimants? Nope
is Taiwan building in reef areas? nope
I asked why China does not avail themselves of the Treaty that governs this and to which the are a signatory. You never answered that.
I noted that china is claiming land, yep land, not just clearly territorial waters under the Convention but territory of Vietnam and Malaysia. You never answered that either.
You mentioned USFP. Yes they are not always right, lots of screwup to be truthful.
The countries involved signed an accord for joint discussion to settle the issue and that no one would build up in areas.
Malaysia and China have both done this.
China backed off on that agreement as well.
It is China that has caused this problem by their actions.

Yet you constantly defend China, even when they are clearly in violation of the Convention, and their complete disregard for past agreements.And screw the rest.
Who do you think small countries turn to in situations like this? The US.
The US has not broken any agreements, not violated any policies, not bullied their neighbors.

What you have happening is just a taste of what China will do in the coming years.
China still has territorial grievances with, guess who, Russia to begin with, India is another.
You bias on USFP is clearly coloring your judgement.

Yet you fault the US. Why?

I've answered all those questions, you just don't like the answers.

The 1887 Chinese-Vietnamese Boundary convention signed between France and China after the Sino-French War said that China was the owner of the Spratly and Paracel islands.

Territorial disputes in the South China Sea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In 1907 China installed survey markers and flags on the islands.

And AGAIN, Japan seized control of the Spratly's from China in 1939! After the Japanese surrendered, possession of the islands were transferred back to China.

Chines artifacts (pottery and coins) were excavated from the islands dating to the 1,700's

I don't think China feels the need to ask the UN who didn't even exist during those events what they think about it.

I disagree with you therefore that China's the one causing any problems. And you really are in over your head if your going to set where you are and tell me that the US has never bullied any other countries......:roll:

Apparently China and Russia have merging interests that make trivial any territorial disputes between them. Do you understand that China is encouraging an ASEAN security alliance between themselves, Iran and Russia.

1902 – China sends naval forces on inspection tours of the Paracel Islands to preempt French claims.[49]
1907 – China sends another naval force, this time to plan for resource exploitation.[49]
1911 – The newly formed Republic of China, successor state to the Qing Dynasty, moves administration of the Paracel Islands to Hainan,[49] which would not become a separate Chinese province until 1988.
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

I've answered all those questions, you just don't like the answers.

The 1887 Chinese-Vietnamese Boundary convention signed between France and China after the Sino-French War said that China was the owner of the Spratly and Paracel islands.

Territorial disputes in the South China Sea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





In 1907 China installed survey markers and flags on the islands.

And AGAIN, Japan seized control of the Spratly's from China in 1939! After the Japanese surrendered, possession of the islands were transferred back to China.

Chines artifacts (pottery and coins) were excavated from the islands dating to the 1,700's

I don't think China feels the need to ask the UN who didn't even exist during those events what they think about it.

I disagree with you therefore that China's the one causing any problems. And you really are in over your head if your going to set where you are and tell me that the US has never bullied any other countries......:roll:

Apparently China and Russia have merging interests that make trivial any territorial disputes between them. Do you understand that China is encouraging an ASEAN security alliance between themselves, Iran and Russia.

Not that I do not like the answers, the answers have no substance.
I ain't talking about the islands. Look at the 47 agreement and the new claims. Right into territorial waters of other countries. The n47 map claimed part of 2 nations territory. That ain't water.

No answer on why China reneged on their agreement and specifically demanded one on one negotiations. That one is easy to answer.

No answer on why China does not avail themselves of the Seas Convention? Why? Can you answer that.
No answer on why China reneged on their past agreements. Again an easy one
No answer on why the US is supposedly in the wrong?
No answer on why these countries are asking for US diplomatic assistance.
No answer on why China does not take this to the UN? Because they will lose.
Why is the US in the wrong on this?
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

White Paper Outlines China's AmbitionsDefenseNews.com‎ - 2 days ago

... flying near Chinese controlled areas of the South China Sea. ... The report indicates that Taiwan's multiple military variables to deter Chinese aggression are eroding. In the ...

TAIPEI, Taiwan — China released its first white paper on military strategy Tuesday, just two weeks after the release of the Pentagon's annual report to the US Congress on China's military and security developments.
Neither report appears to take blame for the rising tensions in the South China and East China seas. The Chinese report, "China's Military Strategy," indicates "some of its offshore neighbors" have taken "provocative actions" and reinforced their military presence on China's reefs and islands "illegally."
Without mentioning the US, it says, "some external countries are also busy meddling in South China Sea affairs; a tiny few maintain constant close-in air and sea surveillance and reconnaissance against China."
No mention is made of the recent warning to a US reconnaissance aircraft flying near Chinese controlled areas of the South China Sea. China has not fully explained massive land reclamation efforts that will turn some reefs and islets into airbases and port facilities. . . .
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

[h=3]China's Dangerous Game - The Atlantic[/h]www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/.../chinas.../380789/


The Atlantic


If China can impose its will in the South China Sea, at least five rival .... Chinese ships in order to raise the cost of Chinese aggression to unacceptable levels.
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

[h=3]US Raises Opposition To China's Moves In South China Sea[/h]www.npr.org › News › World › AsiaNPR


May 15, 2015 - The Obama administration says China is making aggressive grabs for disputed islands in the South China Sea. The mounting tensions loom ...


[h=3][/h]
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

  1. [h=3]America Can Stop Chinese Aggression in Asia - The ...[/h]nationalinterest.org/.../superpower-showdown-ameri...


  2. The National Interest


    Mar 6, 2015 - Superpower Showdown: America Can Stop Chinese Aggression in Asia ... Beijing's actions in the South China Sea should not be shocking ...



 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

[h=3]China's New Airstrip in the South China Sea Is Almost ...[/h]foreignpolicy.com/.../chinas-new-airstrip-in-the-south-chi...


Foreign Policy


Apr 16, 2015 - Declaring a zone over the South China Sea, as Chinese scholars and ... stand up to what it sees as China's aggression in the South China Sea.
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

[h=3]China is on a crazy mission to build artificial islands. What ...[/h]www.vox.com/2015/3/13/8203713/south-china-sea-explained


Mar 13, 2015 - Filipino demonstrators at a 2014 protest against Chinese aggression in the South China Sea. (JAY DIRECTO/AFP/Getty Images) ...
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

But no ally has asked the US to uphold its treaty obligations here nor inferred that it needs to. The US seems to have taken it upon itself to provoke China over what is a regional storm in a teacup 8000 miles away. Why is it doing this ?

No, they haven't to my knowledge, not yet. It behooves us to understand the nature of the conflict and what may be expected of us if it escalates. Any responsible government with such obligations would do this. England would. Russia would, and anybody else you care to think of who has those obligations and that capacity. It's simply prudent. Let me remind you, we are not the ones threatening to fight here. China is the one doing that. I assume they want to fight with those in the region who have some gripes because they've taken some belligerent actions against some of them. That, and the free passage thing I mentioned before are the reasons why we have some small stake in the adventures there. Beyond that, no, I don't think we're particularly interested in the Chinese island being constructed other than for an assessment of the military capabilities they intend to base there.
 
Back
Top Bottom