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Thread: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South China

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    Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

    Quote Originally Posted by humbolt View Post
    So you think we should ignore our treaty obligations?
    I'm totally in favor of renegotiating our treaties with Japan and the Philippines (others too) as I don't believe we should bind ourselves to militarily defending either of them should they attack China over this dispute.

    We don't have any treaty obligations to fight for the Philippines claims on the Spratly islands. And, the 1887 boundary convention signed by France and China at the conclusion of the Sino-French war, recognizes China's ownership of the Spratlys. Japan wrested possession of the Spratlys from China in 1939. But they were returned in 1947 after Japan had surrendered and was in their restitution phase. North Vietnam also recognised China's ownership of the islands.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Please produce titles from Vietnam and the Philippines.
    I just got done telling you that anybody could claim title as they have historically been largely unoccupied territory. At different times through recorded history various peoples have occupied the islands in dispute - none lasting. Who is to say that Vietnam, the Philippines, China, and any other claimant is more rightful than the others but an impartial international judge? Not you, Monte, not you. You don't have the bona fides. I don't claim to either, but if it was ever so clear as you maintain, then there wouldn't be any dispute, now would there?
    "I believe that man will not merely endure: he will prevail. He is immortal, not because he alone among creatures has an inexhaustible voice, but because he has a soul, a spirit capable of compassion and sacrifice and endurance." William Faulkner

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    Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

    Quote Originally Posted by humbolt View Post
    I just got done telling you that anybody could claim title as they have historically been largely unoccupied territory. At different times through recorded history various peoples have occupied the islands in dispute - none lasting. Who is to say that Vietnam, the Philippines, China, and any other claimant is more rightful than the others but an impartial international judge? Not you, Monte, not you. You don't have the bona fides. I don't claim to either, but if it was ever so clear as you maintain, then there wouldn't be any dispute, now would there?
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    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Bolded. As was the case in Iraq, another that you should have opposed.
    No disagreement with respect to the 2003 war.

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    Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    I'm totally in favor of renegotiating our treaties with Japan and the Philippines (others too) as I don't believe we should bind ourselves to militarily defending either of them should they attack China over this dispute.
    Fine. Who is threatening to attack China?

    We don't have any treaty obligations to fight for the Philippines claims on the Spratly islands. And, the 1887 boundary convention signed by France and China at the conclusion of the Sino-French war, recognizes China's ownership of the Spratlys. Japan wrested possession of the Spratlys from China in 1939. But they were returned in 1947 after Japan had surrendered and was in their restitution phase. North Vietnam also recognised China's ownership of the islands.
    I didn't say we would support any Philippine claim. I don't care what France, Japan , or North Vietnam said decades or over a century ago. None of these countries alone is the sole arbiter of who owns the islands. Put the claims, with or without merit, on the table of international judgement and let the chips fall where they may. If such a simple resolution makes me part of the "I hate China" crowd as you claim, then any reasonable offering other than China simply taking them is also an "I hate China" stance.
    "I believe that man will not merely endure: he will prevail. He is immortal, not because he alone among creatures has an inexhaustible voice, but because he has a soul, a spirit capable of compassion and sacrifice and endurance." William Faulkner

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    Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

    Quote Originally Posted by Luftwaffe View Post
    Le link?
    That info is not (that I know of) available on the internet.

    And before you start... That really wasn't the point of my post.

    You're welcome to take it or leave it.
    "Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are." -Kurt Cobain

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    Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Yes, true enough. Has anybody disputed that?? Now kindly show me where China has threatened to compromise anybody's ability to continue to peddle their trade via the shipping lanes that straddle the Spratlys?

    How about we look at Vietnam Monte. Did China invoke a ban on fishing? Does that affect merchants?



    Vietnam has strongly condemned a temporary Chinese ban on fishing in the South China Sea, calling the move a violation of its sovereignty, as the neighboring countries seek to repair ties damaged by Beijing’s deployment of an oil rig to the contested waters a year ago. The annual May 16-Aug. 1 fishing ban, which threatens violators with confiscations and legal action, was introduced in 1999 “to promote the sustainable development of the fishing industry in the South China Sea and protect the fundamental interest of fishermen,” China’s official Xinhua news agency said in a report.

    Vietnam’s Foreign Ministry spokesman Le Hai Binh voiced strong protest over the fishing ban, saying the act violated the country’s jurisdiction over the waters under the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS), according to the state-run Vietnam News.

    "Viet Nam vehemently opposes this void decision," Binh said of the ban, which includes the Gulf of Tonkin and the disputed Paracel islands.....snip~

    Vietnam Condemns Chinese Ban on Fishing in South China Sea

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    Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

    Quote Originally Posted by humbolt View Post
    Free trade and free passage are not limited to strictly maritime issues. Additionally, there are also disputed fishing rights among other things. All suggest that a solution be settled at a table for discussion, negotiation, and arbitration if necessary.

    Yeah HB and Vietnam has claim to some of the Spratlys too. Still they didn't like the Chinese Putting up and Oil Rig in their Waters.




    While communist parties rule both Vietnam and China and annual trade has risen to $50 billion, Hanoi has long been wary of China, especially over Beijing's claims to most of the potentially energy-rich South China Sea. Beijing's placement of an oil rig in waters claimed by Vietnam earlier this year infuriated Hanoi but the coastguard vessels it dispatched to the platform were always chased off by larger Chinese boats.

    The Vietnamese are likely to run so-called area denial operations off its coast and around its military bases in the Spratly island chain of the South China Sea once the submarines are fully operational, experts said.

    That would complicate Chinese calculations over any military move against Vietnamese holdings in the Spratlys or in the event of an armed clash over disputed oil fields, even though China has a much larger navy, including a fleet of 70 submarines, they added.....snip~

    Vietnam building deterrent against China in disputed seas with submarines

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    Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

    Quote Originally Posted by humbolt View Post
    Fine. Who is threatening to attack China?



    I didn't say we would support any Philippine claim. I don't care what France, Japan , or North Vietnam said decades or over a century ago. None of these countries alone is the sole arbiter of who owns the islands. Put the claims, with or without merit, on the table of international judgement and let the chips fall where they may. If such a simple resolution makes me part of the "I hate China" crowd as you claim, then any reasonable offering other than China simply taking them is also an "I hate China" stance.
    I don't know that anybody is, but you brought up treaty obligations. I don't believe we should be bound to the military defense of the Philippines or Japan "if" they attack China, or if either they or someone else pulls a "gulf of Tonkin" incident (wink wink, nod nod).

    The rest of your post is total patronising bull ****. If decades or centuries old treaties and precedence aren't acceptable factors, then there's a whole bunch of real estate that the US (and others) are holding illegitimately. Nothing needs to be laid on any damn table. China has the premier claim to them. Shall we have Mexico claim Hawaii, and insist that the US go back before your "table of international judgement" and prove that it belongs to us?

    You're barking up the wrong tree with this, and it's damn sure not worth risking a US/China military engagement over.

    And furthermore. You don't give a damn about those tiny uninhabitable islands. Out of complete ignorance of the history of those islands, if its China, you're against it.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    How about we look at Vietnam Monte. Did China invoke a ban on fishing? Does that affect merchants?



    Vietnam has strongly condemned a temporary Chinese ban on fishing in the South China Sea, calling the move a violation of its sovereignty, as the neighboring countries seek to repair ties damaged by Beijing’s deployment of an oil rig to the contested waters a year ago. The annual May 16-Aug. 1 fishing ban, which threatens violators with confiscations and legal action, was introduced in 1999 “to promote the sustainable development of the fishing industry in the South China Sea and protect the fundamental interest of fishermen,” China’s official Xinhua news agency said in a report.

    Vietnam’s Foreign Ministry spokesman Le Hai Binh voiced strong protest over the fishing ban, saying the act violated the country’s jurisdiction over the waters under the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS), according to the state-run Vietnam News.

    "Viet Nam vehemently opposes this void decision," Binh said of the ban, which includes the Gulf of Tonkin and the disputed Paracel islands.....snip~

    Vietnam Condemns Chinese Ban on Fishing in South China Sea
    Again, that's between Vietnam and China. As much as you froth at the mouth to have the US flexing its muscle all over the world, in order to assure yourself that you still have some balls, it's not the US's business. Furthermore, I've been responding to posters making the claim that the sea lanes that 6 trillion dollars worth of trade goods passes through annually is what gives the US legitimacy in butting in. Except that China hasn't threatened to disrupt that!
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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