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Thread: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South China

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    Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    You so nicely describe the US with that. Otherwise I agree...
    Are you suggesting that the U.S. would or should be an exception? Of course, possession of hard power and its use are two different matters. IMO, the use of hard power should be limited to cases where critical or vital national interests are at stake and/or strategic allies are threatened. If one can use it to deter threats, one can accomplish one's strategic goals at much lower cost than if one actually has to use force.

    But China's understanding of this doesn't end with their experiences with Japan. The current military spending spree, (approximately 18% annual increase) has directly correlated to US military adventurism in the Middle East which has taken both China and Russia's breath away. And they have declared there concerns over it, and even blocked further US aggressions at the UN level.
    China's advocating non-interference in the domestic affairs of sovereign states is rooted in its own tragic experience when its empire's weakness was exploited by foreign states. It rejects calls for intervention on grounds of another country's political structure, internal conflict, etc., as it believes such intervention can lead to abuses and rationale for renewed interference in its own internal affairs. Whether intervention was pursued along the lines of the 2003 Iraq War aimed at toppling Saddam Hussein or under the Obama Administration's "Responsibility to Protect" principle, China believes such intervention is illegitimate. Of course, China takes a different posture when it comes to Taiwan, as it sees Taiwan as an inherent part of China that had temporarily broken away.

    USFP is pushing Russia and China together, and pushing China on the Spratlys, (and greater SCS) and coming to unfounded conclusions about their intentions is either the product of bias hatred of China (god knows why) or just plain ignorance, or maybe both.
    The current U.S.-Russia tensions have led to a closer relationship between Russia and China. Common interests between the two countries are also playing a role. How deep the relationship grows remains to be seen.

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    Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

    Quote Originally Posted by humbolt View Post
    Did I say they were? I think you need to understand free and innocent passage - it doesn't pertain to maritime passage alone, and not solely to shipping, although that seems to be the only portion of this issue you seem eager to discuss. Could it be that the reason is that shipping itself, per se, is not the central issue? I think so.
    What are you talking about, that's what people continue to claim. In fact at least three posters have offered it up as a legitimate excuse for the US to stick its nose in another dispute in the Asian region that involves six nations, none of which are the US!
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

    Quote Originally Posted by Luftwaffe View Post
    Oooh when was this (even though war games =\= all out war).

    Early 2000's. And I never said it was.
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    Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Are you suggesting that the U.S. would or should be an exception? Of course, possession of hard power and its use are two different matters. IMO, the use of hard power should be limited to cases where critical or vital national interests are at stake and/or strategic allies are threatened. If one can use it to deter threats, one can accomplish one's strategic goals at much lower cost than if one actually has to use force.



    China's advocating non-interference in the domestic affairs of sovereign states is rooted in its own tragic experience when its empire's weakness was exploited by foreign states. It rejects calls for intervention on grounds of another country's political structure, internal conflict, etc., as it believes such intervention can lead to abuses and rationale for renewed interference in its own internal affairs. Whether intervention was pursued along the lines of the 2003 Iraq War aimed at toppling Saddam Hussein or under the Obama Administration's "Responsibility to Protect" principle, China believes such intervention is illegitimate. Of course, China takes a different posture when it comes to Taiwan, as it sees Taiwan as an inherent part of China that had temporarily broken away.



    The current U.S.-Russia tensions have led to a closer relationship between Russia and China. Common interests between the two countries are also playing a role. How deep the relationship grows remains to be seen.
    To the bolded, I don't buy that from you for a moment. USFP that is pushing China and Russia closer together far predates and has to do with much more than Ukraine.

    I will also notice that you're unwilling to factor in China and Russia's disgust with the US over its ME policies over the last dozen years, and more recently, Ukraine. Remember that China doesn't buy the US position on that either.
    Last edited by Montecresto; 05-27-15 at 03:52 PM.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    To the bolded, I don't buy that from you for a moment.
    I used exactly those grounds to oppose U.S. military intervention in Syria's sectarian conflict and in Libya. In the former case, one was dealing with illiberal to extreme elements and an authoritarian regime, none of which were likely to be hospitable to U.S. interests and regional allies. In the latter, one was dealing with an Islamist uprising against another authoritarian regime in which no meaningful U.S. interests were at stake. IMO, Syria would have been better off and ISIS far weaker had there been an international arms embargo on the warring parties. Libya disintegrated when central authority was smashed reviving tribal rivalries and creating significant arms flows to other parts of the Mideast.

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    Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    One cannot act aggressively when defending their territory. And China has several forms of title to the Spratlys, the others none. And China has accussed the others, save Brunei, of their own aggressive actions over the years in building military infrastructures on various islands in the archipelago, as well as stationing troops on them. This is NOT this cut and dry situation that the "hate China" crowd depicts. I suppose your amongst the party of hawks that even thinks China's pursuit of its interests in the South China Sea are worthy of a military response???
    I don't care about China's titles or claims. Vietnam also has claims and titles as do the Philippines, in spite of your assertion to the contrary. Any sovereign in the area could make a claim, but that doesn't make it legitimate. There are responsible avenues for asserting such claims, and they don't involve building military bases, claiming economic exclusion zones, and warning all others to keep out under threat of military action. That's China's game at present, and the history of others who've done the same before is not justification for engaging in the very same behavior now. I've not mentioned a military response at all - I've mentioned our treaties and our obligations. The military response and the hate China thing seems to be your game - not mine.

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    Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

    [QUOTE=donsutherland1;1064662006]I used exactly those grounds to oppose U.S. military intervention in Syria's sectarian conflict and in Libya. In the former case, one was dealing with illiberal to extreme elements and an authoritarian regime, none of which were likely to be hospitable to U.S. interests and regional allies. In the latter, one was dealing with an Islamist uprising against another authoritarian regime in which no meaningful U.S. interests were at stake. IMO, Syria would have been better off and ISIS far weaker had there been an international arms embargo on the warring parties. Libya disintegrated when central authority was smashed reviving tribal rivalries and creating significant arms flows to other parts of the Mideast.[/QUOTE]

    Bolded. As was the case in Iraq, another that you should have opposed.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

    Quote Originally Posted by humbolt View Post
    I don't care about China's titles or claims. Vietnam also has claims and titles as do the Philippines, in spite of your assertion to the contrary. Any sovereign in the area could make a claim, but that doesn't make it legitimate. There are responsible avenues for asserting such claims, and they don't involve building military bases, claiming economic exclusion zones, and warning all others to keep out under threat of military action. That's China's game at present, and the history of others who've done the same before is not justification for engaging in the very same behavior now. I've not mentioned a military response at all - I've mentioned our treaties and our obligations. The military response and the hate China thing seems to be your game - not mine.
    Please produce titles from Vietnam and the Philippines.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

    Quote Originally Posted by Doppelgangirl View Post
    Early 2000's. And I never said it was.
    Le link?
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    Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    What are you talking about, that's what people continue to claim. In fact at least three posters have offered it up as a legitimate excuse for the US to stick its nose in another dispute in the Asian region that involves six nations, none of which are the US!
    So you think we should ignore our treaty obligations?

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