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Israel asking U.S. for 50% increase in next defense assistance package [W:98]

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Montecresto said:
I appreciate your personal belief in that, but it is subjective and it has no place in the public world of politics and diplomacy. Please keep it out of the debate.
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Show me a rule for that and I will. Otherwise it's entirely pertinent to this conversation.
 
MVictorP said:
You see your God as a goon for the Jewish mafia?

I like to imagine mine more... godly.

But overall I don't think that's good to drink too much holy water.
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godly: synonyms: religious, devout, pious, reverent, believing, *God-fearing, saintly, holy, prayerful, spiritual, churchgoing
 
WCH said:
godly: synonyms: religious, devout, pious, reverent, believing, *God-fearing, saintly, holy, prayerful, spiritual, churchgoing
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I know it's OT and only a matter of time before a mod blunders in, but you are wrong.

The synonyms you are giving are for religious people such as you. I meant "godly" in the angelic, celestial, deific, divine, good, holy, righteous, saintly sense. How the heck can a God be pious or believing? To some sort of meta-God, probably? That's simply ridiculous. There are many things people write without thinking, like on auto-pilot.

And a god that lowers him(her)self to being a goon working for one people in particular but not the others, and about money matters (no less) isn't "godly". Not at all. Maybe this god you are praying to is in fact the devil. Maybe the devil likes how the Israelis are doing things. It sure brings him lots of buisness.

And I insist that the God in the OT is different from the one proposed in the NT. What did the Christ said about rebuilding the Temple? A temple is a much more pin-on symbol for gods and religions than prophets might be.
 
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WCH said:
Show me a rule for that and I will. Otherwise it's entirely pertinent to this conversation.
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No, it's not. I'm satisfied that most Americans don't want the government basing Israeli aid policy on antiquated passages of the Torah!!
 
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MVictorP said:
I know it's OT and only a matter of time before a mod blunders in, but you are wrong.

The synonyms you are giving are for religious people such as you. I meant "godly" in the angelic, celestial, deific, divine, good, holy, righteous, saintly sense. How the heck can a God be pious or believing? To some sort of meta-God, probably? That's simply ridiculous. There are many things people write without thinking, like on auto-pilot.

And a god that lowers him(her)self to being a goon working for one people in particular but not the others, and about money matters (no less) isn't "godly". Not at all. Maybe this god you are praying to is in fact the devil. Maybe the devil likes how the Israelis are doing things. It sure brings him lots of buisness.

And I insist that the God in the OT is different from the one proposed in the NT. What did the Christ said about rebuilding the Temple? A temple is a much more pin-on symbol for gods and religions than prophets might be.
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You said *godly. That applies to actions of mere mortals not, God himself who is immaculate. He has never changed or varied from his position. Neither has Christ.

Where in human history did people start believing otherwise would be the big question. Where did we come up with the idea we could simply change the rules mid-game?
 
WCH said:
You said *godly. That applies to actions of mere mortals not, God himself who is immaculate. He has never changed or varied from his position. Neither has Christ.
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Please explain "New Testament", then

The Bible is a work of man. Emperor Constantine himself decided which book would be included in the population-control bible he was putting on. And one of his bigest mistake was to mix up the Old and the New. The god in the NT proposes presenting the other cheek, while the one in the OT fixes the prices you can get while selling your daughter. C'mon, bud.
 
MVictorP said:
Please explain "New Testament", then

The Bible is a work of man. Emperor Constantine himself decided which book would be included in the population-control bible he was putting on. And one of his bigest mistake was to mix up the Old and the New. The god in the NT proposes presenting the other cheek, while the one in the OT fixes the prices you can get while selling your daughter. C'mon, bud.
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Through atonement [The reconciliation of God and humans brought about by the redemptive life and death of Jesus] and our faith, we have been allowed a new spiritual life. [should we choose to accept it]

However, Christ said for us to go forth and SIN NO MORE. As a group, we have failed him and his Father mightily.
 
WCH said:
Through atonement [The reconciliation of God and humans brought about by the redemptive life and death of Jesus] and our faith, we have been allowed a new spiritual life. [should we choose to accept it]

However, Christ said for us to go forth and SIN NO MORE. As a group, we have failed him and his Father mightily.
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And what about giving an answer to my post?
 
Anomalism said:
Should we give Israel more aid?

Israel asking U.S. for 50% increase in next defense assistance package | Jewish Telegraphic Agency

Israel reportedly wants the U.S. to increase its annual defense assistance package by half, to an average $4.5 billion. Defense News reported this weekend that Israel and U.S. officials have in recent months begun negotiations on the next 10-year aid package. The previous package, negotiated by the George W. Bush and Ehud Olmert governments in 2007, averaged $3 billion of assistance each year, for a total of $30 billion, from 2007-2017. The government of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu wants that to increase to $42-45 billion over the 2018-2028 period, Defense News reported, adding that President Barack Obama during his March 2013 visit to Israel “endorsed in principle” that range.

Defense News quotes “U.S. and Israeli experts” as saying that the amount would be separate from any package the United States offered Israel as compensation for the Iran nuclear deal now being negotiated between Iran and the major powers. Like the defense assistance package currently in place, it is also separate from the $1.2 billion in materiel the United States stores in Israel and which under certain conditions is available for Israeli use, and from the approximately $500 million in U.S. funds provided to Israeli anti-missile development each year.
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So long as they pay up.

Handouts are stupid.
 
Apocalypse said:
If it didn't need it the US wouldn't give it. I highly doubt the American administrations through the years are just sending money to anyone who wants it.
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So whats in it for the US in giving an already relatively rich nation on the other side of the world all this money ?
 
flogger said:
So whats in it for the US in giving an already relatively rich nation all this money ?
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Well, for one thing, it turns out that they have had ample opportunity to test missile/rocket defense tech that we would like to use ourselves. We also have (had) a solid relationship in the world of intelligence (no one does HUMINT collection in the ME better than the Israelis), though I don't know how much of if that has been reduced since the Administration decided to break our information-sharing agreement with them. Israel additionally has traditionally offered a deniable actor to take on tasks that we wanted or needed done, but weren't willing to sully our own hands with. Destruction of Syrian nuclear facilities, covert action against Iran's nuclear program, etc.

Israel is the largest recipient of US Aid and Egypt is a close second - that arrangement started after the peace deal in which Israel gave back the Sinai, and has kept the peace between those two nations for decades. Additionally, it is right for us to support an embattled democracy surrounded by genocidally psychotic populaces.
 
cpwill said:
Well, for one thing, it turns out that they have had ample opportunity to test missile/rocket defense tech that we would like to use ourselves. We also have (had) a solid relationship in the world of intelligence (no one does HUMINT collection in the ME better than the Israelis), though I don't know how much of if that has been reduced since the Administration decided to break our information-sharing agreement with them. Israel additionally has traditionally offered a deniable actor to take on tasks that we wanted or needed done, but weren't willing to sully our own hands with. Destruction of Syrian nuclear facilities, covert action against Iran's nuclear program, etc.

Israel is the largest recipient of US Aid and Egypt is a close second - that arrangement started after the peace deal in which Israel gave back the Sinai, and has kept the peace between those two nations for decades. Additionally, it is right for us to support an embattled democracy surrounded by genocidally psychotic populaces.
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The US gleefully enters about 10 wars a year. Do they really need Israeli military testings on an unarmed population?

Israel costs you a lot more than it brings back, jaffa oranges and pharmaceuticals be damned.
 
poweRob said:
You could at least make an effort like I did for you.
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There is no reason, when your starting point is so full of BS. What have we invested in? If you can't even acknowledge that, there is no place to go.
 
cpwill said:
Well, for one thing, it turns out that they have had ample opportunity to test missile/rocket defense tech that we would like to use ourselves.
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So why not test them yourselves then ?

We also have (had) a solid relationship in the world of intelligence (no one does HUMINT collection in the ME better than the Israelis), though I don't know how much of if that has been reduced since the Administration decided to break our information-sharing agreement with them.
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One could argue would you really need such intelligence at all were it not for your relationship with the Israelis in the first place ?

Israel additionally has traditionally offered a deniable actor to take on tasks that we wanted or needed done, but weren't willing to sully our own hands with. Destruction of Syrian nuclear facilities, covert action against Iran's nuclear program, etc.
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Once again it sounds more like the US alleging that Israeli actions had something to do with US security too when there is really little evidence for this

Israel is the largest recipient of US Aid and Egypt is a close second - that arrangement started after the peace deal in which Israel gave back the Sinai, and has kept the peace between those two nations for decades.
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One could equally claim the US has been bribing Egypt to not attack Israel ever since thereby knocking the Arab nations strongest sword from their hands. Only Egypt ever had the sort of military power to realistically threaten Israel

Additionally, it is right for us to support an embattled democracy surrounded by genocidally psychotic populaces.
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I don't think its right for the US to be taking any side at all here. I suspect 9/11 and all the subsequent issues the US has had in the region mostly stems from this touchstone
 
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MVictorP said:
The US gleefully enters about 10 wars a year. Do they really need Israeli military testings on an unarmed population?
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Pretty hard to shoot down a rocket fired at you from an unarmed population. :) another one of those apparently nonexistent rockets fired today, in fact.

Israel costs you a lot more than it brings back, jaffa oranges and pharmaceuticals be damned.
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:shrug: it's not impossible, a lot of what Israel provides is intangible. How do you put a financial metric onto (for example) human intelligence that ISIL is planning an attack in (making something up) Spain?
 
Iran has a Middle Eastern armed-conflict surrogate/proxy called, 'Syria'.

The U.S. has one called, 'Israel'.

Seems kinda' even, to me...
 
flogger said:
So whats in it for the US in giving an already relatively rich nation on the other side of the world all this money ?
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There's what one knows and what one doesn't know.
What one knows includes advanced technology, full economic partnership, a solid ally in the Mideast, etc.
Examples of technologies created by combined US and Israeli knowledge or by Israeli knowledge and US funds include; Iron Dome, Arrow system, Jericho missiles, Windbreaker, and more with many other projects currently running the most notable of them being the David's Sling anti-ballistic system.
All these technologies would not have been developed without American funds supporting them, that's a given.
 
flogger said:
So why not test them yourselves then ?
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Mexicans just cross our border looking for work; they seem disinclined to rain rockets down on our school children.

One could argue would you really need such intelligence at all were it not for your relationship with the Israelis in the first place ?
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One could argue that. One would be historically illiterate to do so, but that doesn't stop most.

Once again it sounds more like the US alleging that Israeli actions had something to do with US security when there is really little evidence for this
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Quite the opposite, the US has a solid vested interest in halting nuclear proliferation to terror-supporting regimes.

One could equally claim the US has been bribing Egypt to not attack Israel ever since thereby knocking the Arab nations strongest sword from their hands. Only Egypt ever had the sort of military power to realistically threaten Israel
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That depends on what you mean by "threaten". Threaten to annihilate? Maybe. WMD changes the nature of that game, and it was a big sphincter-tightening moment when Saddam started sending SCUDs into Israel.

But yes, peace between Egypt and Israel has thus far worked pretty well as a policy - and well worth the coinage. Unless, of course, you want more massive conflict in the middle east ,and are of the opinion that the Arabs should instead unite to wipe out the state of Israel, in which case I can A) understand why you would think that the US spending some money to purchase peace is a bad thing and B) dismiss you entirely.

I don't think its right for the US to be taking any side at all here. I suspect 9/11 and all the subsequent issues the US has had in the region stems from this touchstone
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Then you need to spend some time studying the history of this region. Al-Qa'ida didn't really give a flying rats' ass about Israel when it was founded (though it has become a handy propaganda point for them when they wanted to gain greater regional sympathy); and when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan (the sort of foundational moment for the global Mujahedeen) , the Palestinians supported the Soviets. Hamas isn't working with al-Qa'ida; they are working with Hezbollah.
 
Apocalypse said:
What one knows includes advanced technology, full economic partnership, a solid ally in the Mideast, etc.
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I would argue Israel is a complete liability to the US politically , militarily and economically. These are not the actions of friends and allies

http://defensetech.org/2013/12/24/report-israel-passes-u-s-military-technology-to-china/

>Sale of technologies and designs of its LAVI fighter to china for its J-10
> Sale of radar technology to China
> Sale of Harpy attack UAV
> Sale of American-Israeli tech on High energy lasers to China
> Sale of technology of US tech derrived Python-3 and Python-4 air to air missiles to China
> Sale of C4I technologies to China
> Help in Chinese anti-ballistic missile tech from the US patriot missiles it has

Israel apologizes to U.S. over sale of technology to china, page 1

Examples of technologies created by combined US and Israeli knowledge or by Israeli knowledge and US funds include; Iron Dome, Arrow system, Jericho missiles, Windbreaker, and more with many other projects currently running the most notable of them being the David's Sling anti-ballistic system.All these technologies would not have been developed without American funds supporting them, that's a given.
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Technologies I'm sure the Chinese will be happy to acquire from Israel very soon
 
flogger said:
I would argue Israel is a complete liability to the US politically , militarily and economically

http://defensetech.org/2013/12/24/report-israel-passes-u-s-military-technology-to-china/

>Sale of technologies and designs of its LAVI fighter to china for its J-10
> Sale of radar technology to China
> Sale of Harpy attack UAV
> Sale of American-Israeli tech on High energy lasers to China
> Sale of technology of US tech derrived Python-3 and Python-4 air to air missiles to China
> Sale of C4I technologies to China
> Help in Chinese anti-ballistic missile tech from the US patriot missiles it has

Israel apologizes to U.S. over sale of technology to china, page 1



Technologies I'm sure the Chinese will be happy to acquire from Israel very soon
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Most of it is nonsense, Israel had only done the US wrong once in its trades with China, an apology was made and the responsible individual had actually gone to resign from office. Generally speaking it's notably irrelevant in any objective analysis of the entire relationship, so you aren't being rational about it here.
 
cpwill said:
Mexicans just cross our border looking for work; they seem disinclined to rain rockets down on our school children.
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That didn't answer my question

One could argue that. One would be historically illiterate to do so, but that doesn't stop most.
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And what problems did the US face in the region before its intimate involvement with Israel then ?

Quite the opposite, the US has a solid vested interest in halting nuclear proliferation to terror-supporting regimes.
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But you are OK with Israel having them though ? Thats never going to work out very well

That depends on what you mean by "threaten". Threaten to annihilate? Maybe. WMD changes the nature of that game, and it was a big sphincter-tightening moment when Saddam started sending SCUDs into Israel.

But yes, peace between Egypt and Israel has thus far worked pretty well as a policy - and well worth the coinage. Unless, of course, you want more massive conflict in the middle east ,and are of the opinion that the Arabs should instead unite to wipe out the state of Israel, in which case I can A) understand why you would think that the US spending some money to purchase peace is a bad thing and B) dismiss you entirely.
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Lets just say for arguments sake Israel had fallen during the 1973 Yom Kippur conflict. How do you think the US position in the region would be different today ?

Then you need to spend some time studying the history of this region. Al-Qa'ida didn't really give a flying rats' ass about Israel when it was founded
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On the contrary it was a touchstone for its dissent. By Bin Laden’s own account, this is why al Qaeda attacked America. His critique has never been cultural; he never mentions Madonna, Hollywood, homosexuality or drugs in his diatribes. US support for Israel, especially the support it gave to Israel’s invasion of southern Lebanon in 1982, first triggered Bin Laden’s anti-Americanism.
 
I say not another penny until the settlements stop completely.
 
I say end all military aid to all countries.

Including South Korea, Israel, Egypt...everyone.

If they cannot make it on their own...tough.
 
Apocalypse said:
Most of it is nonsense, Israel had only done the US wrong once in its trades with China, an apology was made and the responsible individual had actually gone to resign from office. Generally speaking it's notably irrelevant in any objective analysis of the entire relationship, so you aren't being rational about it here.
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The Israelis are the greatest military liability the US currently has and the record goes back decades involving some of the most militarily sensitive technologies.

WRMEA | Defense and Intelligence: Pentagon, GAO Report Israeli Espionage And Illegal Technology Retransfer
 
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