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Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS[W:452]

Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

In fact in those places you mentioned, Nation Building is exactly what happened and people also said r=that Japan, Korea and germany could never be democracies.

D you really think that the Arabs are that backward?

Their grounding in Islam and their allegiance to it makes any kind of efforts such as we did in SoKo, Germany and Japan quite a different issue, IMO.

Look at the secularization movement imposed on Turkey through sheer force, by Ataturk. Even after many more decades of Islamic imposed secularization than we have invested to the nations where we left sizable occupation forces, they are reverting back to Islamism.

To think that even with force that we could overcome the deep seated Islamic orientation which makes Kafirs hated and Kafirs occupying Dar al Islam to impose Democracy, which means a completely different thing to Muslims than it does to us, is unrealistic.

To use an analogy of flight.

Helium balloons or hot air balloons fly.

Glider soar.

Airplanes develop lift.

Rockets power their way into the heavens and when they run out of power there is nothing to prevent them falling back to Earth like a rock.

Germany, Japan, Korea have societies and cultures which were able to use the guidance and structure and impetus of the US military and US inspired democracy to soar on their own after a while.

But, the minute US power was no longer there to keep hope alive for a US style Democracy in the Middle East it fell back to Earth like a rock or should I say, Iraq.

Why?

Because Democracy is incompatible with Islam.

Amir Taheri: "Islam Is Incompatible With Democracy"
 
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Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

ISIS seized 40 American tanks, anti tank weaponry and thousands of machine guns with the latest Iraqi forces failure to fight and didn't even send us a thank you note.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Never said it did, but after WWII we stayed in countries to keep stability, unlike Obama pulling out of Iraq and now it's in flames and we're back in. Hillary what we know now would you have pulled out of Iraq?

Those days are over. ;)
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

ISIS seized 40 American tanks, anti tank weaponry and thousands of machine guns with the latest Iraqi forces failure to fight and didn't even send us a thank you note.

There is a certain probability, don't know the number, that ISIS is very much like AQ--created by the CIA in some shadow cave somewhere.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

We Americans are so very much brainwashed.

The CIA is very much in control of our foreign policy.

Right. That's why it changes very little from one administration to another. Wesley Clarke showed us details of a Pentagon paper with a list of nations that the U.S. Planned regime change in for the ME, and Obama promptly knocked two more off the list.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Their grounding in Islam and their allegiance to it makes any kind of efforts such as we did in SoKo, Germany and Japan quite a different issue, IMO.
I agree, but we can also remember the celebrations going on, despite the dangers, when the Iraqis were allowed their first election. There is a revolution going on in Islam, as evidenced by ISIS murdering other Muslims who will not adapt to their medieval form of Islam by the book.
Look at the secularization movement imposed on Turkey through sheer force, by Ataturk. Even after many more decades of Islamic imposed secularization than we have invested to the nations where we left sizable occupation forces, they are reverting back to Islamism.
Yes, I agree and that only underscores the dangers that radical Islam represents. Will so called 'moderates' begin speaking out against this or will they blindly defend this rise because they cannot bear any criticism whatsoever of their religion?
To think that even with force that we could overcome the deep seated Islamic orientation which makes Kafirs hated and Kafirs occupying Dar al Islam to impose Democracy, which means a completely different thing to Muslims than it does to us, is unrealistic.
I don't think this applies to all Muslims, though it's substantiated by the Koran. The difficulty is not knowing who are the 'good' Muslims and who are the 'bad' Muslims. We have stats that show many Muslims support terrorism, Sharia in the Democracies, and so on, but we often don't know who they are as individuals or why this would make any sense. One action the democracies can take is to police Muslim schools more thoroughly, something that has been avoided largely because of the success of the term "Islamophobia" and charges of "Racism".
Germany, Japan, Korea have societies and cultures which were able to use the guidance and structure and impetus of the US military and US inspired democracy to soar on their own after a while.But, the minute US power was no longer there to keep hope alive for a US style Democracy in the Middle East it fell back to Earth like a rock or should I say, Iraq.
Why? Because Democracy is incompatible with Islam.
We shouldn't have expected Iraq to remain a democracy after the Islamists had been fighting there for years and the country had never experienced democracy in their long history. Japan was nurtured for a very long time, for example, and a system was worked out where democracy was introduced based on the Japanese culture and designed in order that it be more effective over the long term. japan was rebuilt from the ground up, utterly defeated, while the problems in Iraq remained.

Perhaps Islam in the form as described by the Islamists but Turkey is, or was, an example of democracy where Muslims were the majority and it worked. But like any democracy it has to be protected by any movement which wants to 'improve' on it, or have an economic model where everyone can become more equal. The population of any democracy has to be sophisticated enough to withstand these pressures but they often aren't, and that's just the way it is. There are always revolutions bubbling beneath the surface of any society because there are always people who feel they know best on how we should live our lives. A pox on all their houses, I say, and the Imams are no better than the Communists, Socialists, Fascists or what have you. Resisting these people is the duty of everyone, though sometimes, and with deadly results, we often fall short.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Karl Marx.
I really thought that Communism would be exposed when the Wall came down and although some finally realized the truth of what was actually there are still leftists around who feel that Marx, Lenin, Stalin et al were on the right track. This sort of ignorance must be tolerated in a free society but it's still a mystery as to why it should have retained such traction, even among those who should know better.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Who told you it was a murderous, brutal dictatreship? In 1998 Iraq was a stable State (comparing with others in the Middle East) and what is more important it's population was united. For Modern World Saddam was a relique of the past, but who gave them the right?...There is no exact answer what was better for Iraq - to stay with Saddam or to make changes, but what I know exactly is that at the moment Iraqis are missing those times. You can't win love by force, they say..

WOW~! And you even managed a couple of 'likes'. Perhaps its time to learn something about this mass-murdering despot.

The War Crimes of Iraq's Saddam Hussein

Crimes of Saddam Hussein
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

That's evading the question.

You have to be directed to emerging powers.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

In fact in those places you mentioned, Nation Building is exactly what happened and people also said r=that Japan, Korea and germany could never be democracies.

D you really think that the Arabs are that backward?

They are involved in religious wars that has been ongoing since Mohamed died.
Where the majority tramples on the minority sects.
Where corruption runs rampant.
Where justice and laws are well severely flawed.
Does the above apply to all Arab. Persian, No.
Is that backward, or just the way it is?
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

What a joke. A pro Shia government is no democracy.
That's partially correct, though a further indication of why the military should have remained.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

They are involved in religious wars that has been ongoing since Mohamed died.
Where the majority tramples on the minority sects.
Where corruption runs rampant.
Where justice and laws are well severely flawed.
Does the above apply to all Arab. Persian, No.
Is that backward, or just the way it is?
That may be the way it is but not necessarily the way it must remain. Staying the way it is at the moment, hoping it will someday end peacefully,
goes against everything the Islamists are saying and everything that history has taught us.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

What difference did SOFA make in Iraq? Obama wanted to leave and he did. SOFA was not an issue at the time and only became an excuse by the apologists later.

The Iraqi's in the end did not want a SOFA.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Then why not name them? What makes you so nervous about naming names?

I'm not, I've named Russia and China in this context multiple times. There's nothing suspicious whatsoever.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

The Iraqi's in the end did not want a SOFA.

Self determinations a bitch when it conflicts with your own policy. ;)
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

That's partially correct, though a further indication of why the military should have remained.

There's no such indication.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

The Iraqi's in the end did not want a SOFA.
SOFA's are negotiated at regular intervals and the same was expected for Iraq. BHO had no interest in a SOFA and that was reflected in his determination to "end the war in Iraq!", regardless of the consequences.

This is the record of the stupid SOB the Grubers voted for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tErgLS5m_BU
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

I'm not, I've named Russia and China in this context multiple times. There's nothing suspicious whatsoever.
Not to me you didn't. Why not just name them when you're asked???
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

So you feel Iraq is in the same situation now as it was in 2011, huh?

It's one of the few things I agree with the GOP on. The invasion and occupation of Iraq was wrong, a mistake. That's what's written in history.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Not to me you didn't. Why not just name them when you're asked???

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