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Thread: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS[W:452]

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    No, not really. While military operations were being conducted, there was a reduction in terrorist activities and deaths. The presence of in country US and coalition troops had a suppressive and deterrent effect on the terrorists, this can't be denied.
    It was the US presence in the region that caused the terrorist threat to exist in the first place. Hussein may well have been a repressive dictator but he kept such groups well in check and was no friend of Muslim fundamentalism which threatened his own position.

    In long view retrospect, the sectarian strife and fighting would have eventually erupted anyway.
    Perhaps on Saddam's death, given his totally incompetent sons would have taken over. But as all crystal ball gazing of what could have happened, the margin of error is very wide.
    Hussein and his offspring were the devil we knew and could cope with. Now look what we've got

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by NIMBY View Post
    Which Democracy was that--the one were Bush/Cheney's stooge MALIKI massacred Sunnis and did not allow them a voice in the Iraqi government?
    Think that the development of ISIL was an overnight thing?

    Why did Maliki refuse a SOFA agreement with Bush/Cheney to protect our soldiers from Sharia law?
    Few Americans would consider Sharia Law for our Soldiers a "Democracy" .


    Why did he come to the US and Speak at the Peace Institute.....Then Meet with BO later in Dec of 2013. Requesting Aid and Assistance, as well as trainers? Why was he telling BO if the US and International Support quit that they would have a World Problem on their Hand? That it would be disastrous to the World.




    Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, in an October 31 address at the U.S. Institute of Peace (USIP) in Washington, called for more support from the United States in countering an ongoing wave of terrorism in Iraq that has been attributed primarily to al-Qaida-backed extremists, as well as for American patience as Iraq tries to build its young democracy amid the country’s deep internal political disputes.

    The centerpiece of his USIP speech was an appeal for more U.S. support in defeating al-Qaida militants in Iraq. Iraq is seeking additional U.S. weaponry, including Apache attack helicopters and drones, though Maliki’s remarks focused on counterterrorism and intelligence cooperation. “Iraq needs its friends, to benefit from their experience and training,” he said.

    Insufficient U.S. and international support, he warned, would “be disastrous for the whole world.” He said his government has a position of neutrality on the Syrian conflict and favors “a democratic, pluralistic regime” resulting from negotiations in Syria, where an array of opposition forces, including radical groups linked to al-Qaida, are fighting to remove Bashar al-Assad from power. Maliki also acknowledged the need for Iraqi domestic “peace and reconciliation” to defeat terrorists. “Facing terrorism,” he said, “is not only about military force….We need a sound social structure.”.....snip~

    Iraqi Prime Minister Maliki Urges Greater U.S. Support | United States Institute of Peace


    Did you know he also did not have the Seats with the Votes from the Shia to approve the SOFA. 120-80 seats.....by Dec, He thought he could get approval. But it was to late and now he was going to be out of the picture.

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by JC Callender View Post
    If our president was instead a dictator who was gassing our own citizens, I would be glad if the UK liberated us, wouldn't you? And as far as letting other countries get away with it, I don't think we should let them either, we simply don't have the resources to stop everyone.
    So how do we pick and choose who to help? I think Saudi Arabia is awful and treat women like animals...in public. Where are the troops to assist them? Saddam, gassed his people, but Saudi Arabia tortures people daily with the lashings, stonings, etc...while the Saudi's cheer it on like barbarians. The warlords in Africa kill and maim everyday...and zero intervention from any countries. The ME is on the other side of the globe and the chances of them rolling up on American shores is zero to none. They would not get within a 100 miles before they were intercepted. The ME knows nothing but corruption, violence and extreme religion and that will never change. If we wipe out ISIS another will take its place and we will be in a constant war. The US needs to concentrate their efforts closer to home...such as the Mexican border. The Cartel proposes more of a threat to our way of life than any other evil element out there and we do nothing about it. The Cartel is alive and well in the US...drugs that are poisoning our neighborhoods pours across the border every day as well has human trafficking. Why don't we liberate, Mexico, our neighbor from the Cartel?

    Other countries in the ME have funded terrorism for years...just to keep them out of their backyards. They fund terrorism while we use tax dollars to fight terrorism. It doesn't make sense any more to help them. It also doesn't help the perception of Americans when other ME countries sit back and watch ISIS slaughter thousands of people. This is their war, not ours.

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    How could you stay? By occupying a sovereign nation that had told you to leave?
    Well I did show that Maliki was requesting aid and more trainers. Moreover.....the Kurds never wanted us to leave. Nor did all the Sunni.

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Nursmate View Post
    So how do we pick and choose who to help? I think Saudi Arabia is awful and treat women like animals...in public. Where are the troops to assist them? Saddam, gassed his people, but Saudi Arabia tortures people daily with the lashings, stonings, etc...while the Saudi's cheer it on like barbarians. The warlords in Africa kill and maim everyday...and zero intervention from any countries. The ME is on the other side of the globe and the chances of them rolling up on American shores is zero to none. They would not get within a 100 miles before they were intercepted. The ME knows nothing but corruption, violence and extreme religion and that will never change. If we wipe out ISIS another will take its place and we will be in a constant war. The US needs to concentrate their efforts closer to home...such as the Mexican border. The Cartel proposes more of a threat to our way of life than any other evil element out there and we do nothing about it. The Cartel is alive and well in the US...drugs that are poisoning our neighborhoods pours across the border every day as well has human trafficking. Why don't we liberate, Mexico, our neighbor from the Cartel?

    Other countries in the ME have funded terrorism for years...just to keep them out of their backyards. They fund terrorism while we use tax dollars to fight terrorism. It doesn't make sense any more to help them. It also doesn't help the perception of Americans when other ME countries sit back and watch ISIS slaughter thousands of people. This is their war, not ours.


    Mornin Nursmate. With Iraq.....we should have went with those who wouldn't have stabbed us in the back in the first place. Bush and the Neo-Cons chose wrong. That would be the Kurds. We should have told Turkey to shut up. They wanted in NATO. Then we should have told the Shia. The Kurds will be Autonomous.....and that's where we should have put our Embassy. BO dropping the ball, not only added much more of a mess.....but a whole New Dimension of problems.

    Doesn't take but watching BO go thru 3 Secretary of Defenses, Changing out the Joint Chiefs of Staff twice. Changing out his CIA directors, and firing Numerous Generals and Admirals form the Military. Truly all top Brass and any that Opposed him or speaks out against him.

    Up and out of the way of the Sectarian Headgames that the Sunni and Shia play and involve all others to be involved. One way or another.

    So another whole new problem exists wherein BO has increased the Risk of Harm upon all Americans and the Country. Damn near a new Dimension. Its like the Twilight Zone.

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Sure, sure. Of course the anti Bushies are belligerent about their position. But don't listen to them. Just ask yourself why Saddam did not just show the inspectors the "obsolete leftovers". He would still be dictator.
    Anti-Bushies are not alone - the most aware Bushies also know that Iraq was a failure. Only the mindless cheerleaders are still clinging to, in retrospect, find any sort of utility this great waste of ressources might have had. There are none.

    IMO (and only that), Hussein did not want to appear weak in the face of threats, and in this line of thought, keep WMDs (or their absence) as a mean of prevention from foreign attack. Politics, you know?

    PS: The Israelis are not my worry. And they will not be as long as the UN does not guarantee security in the world and everyone is on her own. When there is a believable deterrence of robust policemanship in the UN, you will have a point. Until then, your position is dangerous to us all.
    WEll, if rabid, xenophobic and self-centered militaristic countries that are always at war with neighbours (that they accuse of being sub-humans squatting lands that the Creator gave them) have unregistered nukes, then why did you care about Hussein's Iraq in the first place?
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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    No, not really. While military operations were being conducted, there was a reduction in terrorist activities and deaths. The presence of in country US and coalition troops had a suppressive and deterrent effect on the terrorists, this can't be denied.
    Pardon me, but this is making no sense: there were no Al-Q organisation in Iraq before the invasion - their forces were, to the contrary, busy repressing religious war. AQ then move in as a result of the power vaccuum you guys created. The perceived lull in the terrorist attacks have roots in the Afghanistan invasion, not the Iraqi one.
    To use the fire analogy, the firemen were pulled out before the fire was completely out, and before the local fire brigade could handle future flair ups.
    Not only it wasn't completely out, but it had amplified tenfold and exported other foyers where there wasn't any fire before. It was a short-sighted operation, more executed out of righteous rapture than anything else.

    In long view retrospect, the sectarian strife and fighting would have eventually erupted anyway. Perhaps on Saddam's death, given his totally incompetent sons would have taken over. But as all crystal ball gazing of what could have happened, the margin of error is very wide.
    Hard to say how you'd expected Iraq to turn in after the invasion. Another KSA? You guys can indeed live with a KSA-like regime, but not Hussein's, mmh? A shame: For all of its bad sides (and there were many), Hussein was your best ally out there, your only secular one. But you chose the KSA over him when he entered Kuwait.
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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by MVictorP View Post
    Anti-Bushies are not alone - the most aware Bushies also know that Iraq was a failure. Only the mindless cheerleaders are still clinging to, in retrospect, find any sort of utility this great waste of ressources might have had. There are none.

    IMO (and only that), Hussein did not want to appear weak in the face of threats, and in this line of thought, keep WMDs (or their absence) as a mean of prevention from foreign attack. Politics, you know?



    WEll, if rabid, xenophobic and self-centered militaristic countries that are always at war with neighbours (that they accuse of being sub-humans squatting lands that the Creator gave them) have unregistered nukes, then why did you care about Hussein's Iraq in the first place?
    -Whether it was a "failure" or not, is quite another question and would require considerably more than your statement to analyse and decide.
    -Your opinion indeed seems humble, if it was preventing an attack, that Saddam wanted. Or do you think, he thought that the US would not enforce the Resolution against Schröder and Putin's wishes, after the President's speech to the General Assembly? Of course he would have wanted to look strong to the Iranian Regime after Bush let him stay. But what made him think he would survive?

    I think you have a bias towards Israel and not with the reality of the case.

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    -Whether it was a "failure" or not, is quite another question and would require considerably more than your statement to analyse and decide.
    It isn't my sole statement - it is a consensus that you are going against. I don't get the feel that the Bush administration would invade Iraq if they knew what we now know. Do you?

    -Your opinion indeed seems humble, if it was preventing an attack, that Saddam wanted. Or do you think, he thought that the US would not enforce the Resolution against Schröder and Putin's wishes, after the President's speech to the General Assembly? Of course he would have wanted to look strong to the Iranian Regime after Bush let him stay. But what made him think he would survive?
    Politics are as much about what you don't know than what you know. It's easy to be armchair analysts here with the benefit of retrospect, but for Hussein, apparent weakness in his own country was something he couldn't have survived. Beside, the idea the US attacking Iraq was almost surrealistic before it happen - a solid part of the planet figured it was just posturing, since it was clear that there was no reasons to invade Iraq whatsoever.

    I think you have a bias towards Israel and not with the reality of the case.
    So Israel and the KSA can do but Iraq can't? You can't be the policemen of the world if you have a measure for each weight that you come across. Poeple just see throught this, you know, and hardly accept such geometrically variable values. Be consistant.
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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    It was the US presence in the region that caused the terrorist threat to exist in the first place. Hussein may well have been a repressive dictator but he kept such groups well in check and was no friend of Muslim fundamentalism which threatened his own position.
    You forget. Bush handed over a relatively stable, relatively peaceful and relatively secure Iraq over to Obama.

    Obama needlessly injected himself into the Syrian situation, was too busy to be bothered to achieve a SoF agreement, and instead withdrew the US troops, and it is then this ISIS all hell broke lose. Had Obama stayed the course from the beginning, we wouldn't be in this mess now, as the US troops in country did have a deterrent effect on terrorist attacks, and the additional benefit of training the Iraqi security forces. Granted Maliki screwed the pooch as well, only to compound the issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Hussein and his offspring were the devil we knew and could cope with. Now look what we've got
    Quote Originally Posted by MVictorP View Post
    Pardon me, but this is making no sense: there were no Al-Q organisation in Iraq before the invasion - their forces were, to the contrary, busy repressing religious war. AQ then move in as a result of the power vaccuum you guys created. The perceived lull in the terrorist attacks have roots in the Afghanistan invasion, not the Iraqi one.
    If I'm not mistaken, there was a fall of in terrorist activities in both countries. Seems to coincide with Obama injecting himself into the Syrian situation where ISIS came far more to rise.

    Quote Originally Posted by MVictorP View Post
    Not only it wasn't completely out, but it had amplified tenfold and exported other foyers where there wasn't any fire before. It was a short-sighted operation, more executed out of righteous rapture than anything else.



    Hard to say how you'd expected Iraq to turn in after the invasion. Another KSA? You guys can indeed live with a KSA-like regime, but not Hussein's, mmh? A shame: For all of its bad sides (and there were many), Hussein was your best ally out there, your only secular one. But you chose the KSA over him when he entered Kuwait.
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