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Thread: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS[W:452]

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by MTAtech View Post
    We helped Stalin because he was fighting Hitler. We are helping Iraq because they are fighting ISIS.
    That sounds okay.

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    Using the fire analogy, the fire fighters shouldn't leave (be ordered to withdraw) before the fire is really out, and the local fire fighters can handle any other fires that might crop up, and the local fire fighters leader shouldn't be putting ice cream sales men in charge of the fire fighting.
    The firefighters shouldn't show up to the smouldering building and break the windows out!!!!!!
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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by LeoVlaming View Post
    That is simply not the case.
    No fly zones. Embargoes, sanctions, etc. Air strikes during the 1st war destroyed Iraq's chemical and nuclear facilities. And their biological weapons were in hidden locations and on a small scale.

    They were no threat to anyone.
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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    Using the fire analogy, the fire fighters shouldn't leave (be ordered to withdraw) before the fire is really out, and the local fire fighters can handle any other fires that might crop up, and the local fire fighters leader shouldn't be putting ice cream sales men in charge of the fire fighting.
    Using the fire analogy, the US fought a small bush fire (that was doing giving off more smoke than heat) with flamethrowers and explosives. So now of course it's a wildfire, that some of you still want to fight with flamethrowers and explosives.

    Just get the feck out of there. You have done enough, thank you very much from the arms sellers' part. The US is good at demolishing infrastructures but it has proved incompetant in what happens after - probably because a hawkish majority refuses to acknowledge that there might be other ways than the American one, futhermore when facing civilisations that are millenias old.

    Destroying old stuff is the easy part of reconstruction.
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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by SenorXm/Sirius View Post
    No fly zones. Embargoes, sanctions, etc. Air strikes during the 1st war destroyed Iraq's chemical and nuclear facilities. And their biological weapons were in hidden locations and on a small scale.

    They were no threat to anyone.
    You are correct. This was all about an inept president seeing an opportunity to secure a second term post 9/11. He couldn't find the culprit he'd chosen in Afghanistan and so he still needed a large number of dead Muslims in order to satisfy an outraged and vengeful US electorate. Doing nothing would have meant electoral suicide so Iraq became the perfect patsy having blotted its copybook already. Once he got his second term who cared that it was the wrong Muslims being killed and what happened to Iraq afterwards.

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    People forget that. After Iraq I the UN had found stockpiles of WMD that Saddam had not show as having been destroyed and had to be assumed to still be in possession. Why he did not want to show his hand did not become clear until the inner circle was interviewed after the invasion. But that is uncomfortable knowledge, if you want to attack the decision to remove the dictator. So it is usually evaded by the anti Bushies.
    These "WMDs" were obsolete leftovers, barrel bottoms and other such relics forgotten here and there from the Iran/Iraq war and the Kurdish repression, most of them supplied by the US and its allies. Just by using depleted uranium ammo, the US used more WMDs in Iraq that the Iraqis ever had.

    You want to get real, un-registered WMDs? Check the Israeli arsenal, a country that made Hussein's Iraq like like peaceniks.
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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by MVictorP View Post
    These "WMDs" were obsolete leftovers, barrel bottoms and other such relics forgotten here and there from the Iran/Iraq war and the Kurdish repression, most of them supplied by the US and its allies. Just by using depleted uranium ammo, the US used more WMDs in Iraq that the Iraqis ever had.

    You want to get real, un-registered WMDs? Check the Israeli arsenal, a country that made Hussein's Iraq like like peaceniks.
    Sure, sure. Of course the anti Bushies are belligerent about their position. But don't listen to them. Just ask yourself why Saddam did not just show the inspectors the "obsolete leftovers". He would still be dictator.

    PS: The Israelis are not my worry. And they will not be as long as the UN does not guarantee security in the world and everyone is on her own. When there is a believable deterrence of robust policemanship in the UN, you will have a point. Until then, your position is dangerous to us all.
    Last edited by joG; 05-26-15 at 09:36 AM.

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by MVictorP View Post
    Using the fire analogy, the US fought a small bush fire (that was doing giving off more smoke than heat) with flamethrowers and explosives. So now of course it's a wildfire, that some of you still want to fight with flamethrowers and explosives.

    Just get the feck out of there. You have done enough, thank you very much from the arms sellers' part. The US is good at demolishing infrastructures but it has proved incompetant in what happens after - probably because a hawkish majority refuses to acknowledge that there might be other ways than the American one, futhermore when facing civilisations that are millenias old.

    Destroying old stuff is the easy part of reconstruction.
    No, not really. While military operations were being conducted, there was a reduction in terrorist activities and deaths. The presence of in country US and coalition troops had a suppressive and deterrent effect on the terrorists, this can't be denied.

    To use the fire analogy, the firemen were pulled out before the fire was completely out, and before the local fire brigade could handle future flair ups.

    In long view retrospect, the sectarian strife and fighting would have eventually erupted anyway. Perhaps on Saddam's death, given his totally incompetent sons would have taken over. But as all crystal ball gazing of what could have happened, the margin of error is very wide.
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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    The Iraqi forces as reconstituted may never have had the will to fight anyone, only to make a corrupt career move.

    " ...The dismantling of Saddam’s Ba’ath army by the coalition forces in 2003 saw the end of Iraq’s previously organised and professional army unit. Its passing left not so much a vacuum but a gap for showing off governmental incompetence and cronyism. Iraq is a country split along sectarian lines and when the Americans withdrew, Nouri al-Maliki, the then prime minister of Iraq – and a Shia – ostracised Sunnis from the military and security forces. Their response was to either opt for alternative careers away from the front lines or join fellow Sunni brothers in arms – Islamic State.

    The lack of inclusiveness is only half the story here: experienced, battle-hardened, professional soldiers were replaced by commanders and troops whose interests and motivations were more akin to opportunistic business men. Joining the Iraqi army has become more of a career development-style investment opportunity, a bit like a student doing an MBA who hopes that his tuition fees will result in fame and fortune in some blue-chip commercial nirvana. The prospect of fighting off extremist insurgents is not what they signed up for – and it shows.... "

    https://theconversation.com/corrupti...ic-state-41418


    Mornin Skipper. It has more to do with not having the will to fight. It goes back to Nov of last year.



    Iraq's Sunnis Won't Fight ISIS for U.S......

    Iraq's Sunnis won't fight ISIS for the U.S. says NIQASH, a non-profit media organization operating out of Berlin. Without Sunni support, America's war in Iraq cannot succeed. Here's why.

    According to NIQASH, a source at the U.S. embassy in Baghdad said there have been secret negotiations between various Sunni Muslim armed factions, via Arab and Iraqi Kurdish intermediaries, for the past three months. At the request of U.S. diplomats and military personnel, Shia officials from the Iraqi government have also been meeting with the leaders of these groups in Erbil, Kurdistan and Amman, Jordan.

    The Sunnis seem to be choosing a middle ground, one which does not serve America's interests. According to a 1920s Revolution Brigades (Sunni militia) leader, various militias came to the decision "not to support the international coalition against ISIS. They also decided not to cooperate with ISIS either. If the [Iraqi] army or the [Shia] militias attack [Sunni] areas they control though, they will fight both groups."....snip~

    Iraq's Sunnis Won't Fight ISIS for U.S.*|*Peter Van Buren

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Iraq's Sunni's have been expelled from the Iraqi armed forces. They now defend their own, and no more. It's hardly surprising.
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