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Thread: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS[W:452]

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    In fact in those places you mentioned, Nation Building is exactly what happened and people also said r=that Japan, Korea and germany could never be democracies.

    D you really think that the Arabs are that backward?
    Their grounding in Islam and their allegiance to it makes any kind of efforts such as we did in SoKo, Germany and Japan quite a different issue, IMO.

    Look at the secularization movement imposed on Turkey through sheer force, by Ataturk. Even after many more decades of Islamic imposed secularization than we have invested to the nations where we left sizable occupation forces, they are reverting back to Islamism.

    To think that even with force that we could overcome the deep seated Islamic orientation which makes Kafirs hated and Kafirs occupying Dar al Islam to impose Democracy, which means a completely different thing to Muslims than it does to us, is unrealistic.

    To use an analogy of flight.

    Helium balloons or hot air balloons fly.

    Glider soar.

    Airplanes develop lift.

    Rockets power their way into the heavens and when they run out of power there is nothing to prevent them falling back to Earth like a rock.

    Germany, Japan, Korea have societies and cultures which were able to use the guidance and structure and impetus of the US military and US inspired democracy to soar on their own after a while.

    But, the minute US power was no longer there to keep hope alive for a US style Democracy in the Middle East it fell back to Earth like a rock or should I say, Iraq.

    Why?

    Because Democracy is incompatible with Islam.

    Amir Taheri: "Islam Is Incompatible With Democracy"
    Last edited by Tazmanian Devil; 06-06-15 at 07:10 AM.

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    ISIS seized 40 American tanks, anti tank weaponry and thousands of machine guns with the latest Iraqi forces failure to fight and didn't even send us a thank you note.

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Born Free View Post
    Never said it did, but after WWII we stayed in countries to keep stability, unlike Obama pulling out of Iraq and now it's in flames and we're back in. Hillary what we know now would you have pulled out of Iraq?
    Those days are over.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by rhinefire View Post
    ISIS seized 40 American tanks, anti tank weaponry and thousands of machine guns with the latest Iraqi forces failure to fight and didn't even send us a thank you note.
    There is a certain probability, don't know the number, that ISIS is very much like AQ--created by the CIA in some shadow cave somewhere.

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    There is a certain probability, don't know the number, that ISIS is very much like AQ--created by the CIA in some shadow cave somewhere.
    Now the truth emerges: how the US fuelled the rise of Isis in Syria and Iraq | Seumas Milne | Comment is free | The Guardian
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    We Americans are so very much brainwashed.

    The CIA is very much in control of our foreign policy.

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    We Americans are so very much brainwashed.

    The CIA is very much in control of our foreign policy.
    Right. That's why it changes very little from one administration to another. Wesley Clarke showed us details of a Pentagon paper with a list of nations that the U.S. Planned regime change in for the ME, and Obama promptly knocked two more off the list.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Tazmanian Devil View Post
    Their grounding in Islam and their allegiance to it makes any kind of efforts such as we did in SoKo, Germany and Japan quite a different issue, IMO.
    I agree, but we can also remember the celebrations going on, despite the dangers, when the Iraqis were allowed their first election. There is a revolution going on in Islam, as evidenced by ISIS murdering other Muslims who will not adapt to their medieval form of Islam by the book.
    Look at the secularization movement imposed on Turkey through sheer force, by Ataturk. Even after many more decades of Islamic imposed secularization than we have invested to the nations where we left sizable occupation forces, they are reverting back to Islamism.
    Yes, I agree and that only underscores the dangers that radical Islam represents. Will so called 'moderates' begin speaking out against this or will they blindly defend this rise because they cannot bear any criticism whatsoever of their religion?
    To think that even with force that we could overcome the deep seated Islamic orientation which makes Kafirs hated and Kafirs occupying Dar al Islam to impose Democracy, which means a completely different thing to Muslims than it does to us, is unrealistic.
    I don't think this applies to all Muslims, though it's substantiated by the Koran. The difficulty is not knowing who are the 'good' Muslims and who are the 'bad' Muslims. We have stats that show many Muslims support terrorism, Sharia in the Democracies, and so on, but we often don't know who they are as individuals or why this would make any sense. One action the democracies can take is to police Muslim schools more thoroughly, something that has been avoided largely because of the success of the term "Islamophobia" and charges of "Racism".
    Germany, Japan, Korea have societies and cultures which were able to use the guidance and structure and impetus of the US military and US inspired democracy to soar on their own after a while.But, the minute US power was no longer there to keep hope alive for a US style Democracy in the Middle East it fell back to Earth like a rock or should I say, Iraq.
    Why? Because Democracy is incompatible with Islam.
    We shouldn't have expected Iraq to remain a democracy after the Islamists had been fighting there for years and the country had never experienced democracy in their long history. Japan was nurtured for a very long time, for example, and a system was worked out where democracy was introduced based on the Japanese culture and designed in order that it be more effective over the long term. japan was rebuilt from the ground up, utterly defeated, while the problems in Iraq remained.

    Perhaps Islam in the form as described by the Islamists but Turkey is, or was, an example of democracy where Muslims were the majority and it worked. But like any democracy it has to be protected by any movement which wants to 'improve' on it, or have an economic model where everyone can become more equal. The population of any democracy has to be sophisticated enough to withstand these pressures but they often aren't, and that's just the way it is. There are always revolutions bubbling beneath the surface of any society because there are always people who feel they know best on how we should live our lives. A pox on all their houses, I say, and the Imams are no better than the Communists, Socialists, Fascists or what have you. Resisting these people is the duty of everyone, though sometimes, and with deadly results, we often fall short.

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Emerging powers that will balance it out. I know that's troubling to you.
    That's evading the question.

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Karl Marx.
    I really thought that Communism would be exposed when the Wall came down and although some finally realized the truth of what was actually there are still leftists around who feel that Marx, Lenin, Stalin et al were on the right track. This sort of ignorance must be tolerated in a free society but it's still a mystery as to why it should have retained such traction, even among those who should know better.

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