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Thread: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS[W:452]

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    No fault for using the IBC. The fault is in relying on it exclusively, which as MIT points out is inadequate.

    And, the more recent BBC study corrects the faulty IBC count from earlier.

    About half a million people died in Iraq as a result of war-related causes between the US-led invasion in 2003 and mid-2011, an academic study suggests.
    University researchers from the US, Canada and Iraq based their estimate on randomised surveys of 2,000 households.
    The toll includes not only violent deaths from the invasion and subsequent insurgency, but avoidable fatalities linked to infrastructure collapse.
    It exceeds the 112,000 violent civilian deaths reported by Iraq Body Count.

    Iraq study estimates war-related deaths at 461,000 - BBC News
    The end of the article states that
    The researchers warn that their estimates are associated with "substantial uncertainties". Their estimated death toll was extrapolated from a small representative sample of households, and respondents were asked to recall events that occurred up to 10 years earlier. They also had to rely on outdated census data from 1987 for their population figures.
    It also does not mention that it was the Islamists who were doing much of the killing, damaging the infrastructure, etc. , and whose goals were clear at the time, have been for years, and are closer to fruition today.

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    A
    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    The end of the article states that

    It also does not mention that it was the Islamists who were doing much of the killing, damaging the infrastructure, etc. , and whose goals were clear at the time, have been for years, and are closer to fruition today.
    The "Islamists" improvised ordinance doesn't compare to the U.S. Military's, sorry. Infrastructure was destroyed by U.S. Bombing.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    A

    The "Islamists" improvised ordinance doesn't compare to the U.S. Military's, sorry. Infrastructure was destroyed by U.S. Bombing.
    If you'll recall the Americans were trying to rebuild the infrastructure while it was being sabotaged by the Islamists. I call them Islamists because , had you read the history in the link i attaced, you would have seen that Al Qaeda and ISL were also involved. Rather than naming each group I used the generic "Islamists". Do you have a problem with the term?

    Nor did I claim that the ordinance was comparable, which is a silly remark.

    Read, understand, learn, and then comment.

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    If you'll recall the Americans were trying to rebuild the infrastructure while it was being sabotaged by the Islamists. I call them Islamists because , had you read the history in the link i attaced, you would have seen that Al Qaeda and ISL were also involved. Rather than naming each group I used the generic "Islamists". Do you have a problem with the term?

    Nor did I claim that the ordinance was comparable, which is a silly remark.

    Read, understand, learn, and then comment.
    NOTHING is because Grant says it is. Let that be established first. Comparing the ordinance used by the U.S. With that improvised available to the fighting groups is very relevant. The infrastructure being built was primarily to facilitate Americas largest embassy in the world. Not every fighter is an Islamist, many were there for the money, hired guns, but I don't expect you to ever put down your broad brush.

    Now then, read, understand, learn and then keep quiet if it belies the facts.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    NOTHING is because Grant says it is. Let that be established first. Comparing the ordinance used by the U.S. With that improvised available to the fighting groups is very relevant. The infrastructure being built was primarily to facilitate Americas largest embassy in the world. Not every fighter is an Islamist, many were there for the money, hired guns, but I don't expect you to ever put down your broad brush.

    Now then, read, understand, learn and then keep quiet if it belies the facts.
    I supplied links containing the facts which you appear to have ignored. If you have a problem with facts you are simply debating your beliefs, and they are as unreliable as those of adolescent teenagers entering puberty.

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    I supplied links containing the facts which you appear to have ignored. If you have a problem with facts you are simply debating your beliefs, and they are as unreliable as those of adolescent teenagers entering puberty.
    You supplied incomplete data!! As noted in all the links I provided. Personal insults aren't effective debating tools.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Yet those figures would be very important because we can all recall the suicide bombings against the Iraqi people, threats against the people if they tried to vote, etc., with Muslim murdering Muslin, and the precursors of ISL taking shape. List of bombings during the Iraq War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Sure. If the IBC found in their study that 37% of civilian deaths were due to coalition actions, then their conclusion would be that 45,000 or so civilian deaths came at the hand of coalition actions. Others who have the sole purpose of painting America in the worst light will claim that all casualties on both sides are entirely the fault of the American coalition.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Sure. If the IBC found in their study that 37% of civilian deaths were due to coalition actions, then their conclusion would be that 45,000 or so civilian deaths came at the hand of coalition actions. Others who have the sole purpose of painting America in the worst light will claim that all casualties on both sides are entirely the fault of the American coalition.
    There was no fighters, no terrorists in Iraq until Bush stepped foot in there. I will remind you that the invasion and occupation of Iraq had the (presumably????) opposite desired effect of causing an increase to global trrorism and made America less safe. The United States owns Iraq for having broken it, that includes any civilians killed by the Islamic extremists invited into Iraq by the U.S. Military's ill advised presence there.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    No fault for using the IBC. The fault is in relying on it exclusively, which as MIT points out is inadequate.
    Holy crap, dude. Are you honestly trying to fault me for only using the single source you were using to try and prove your point?

    And, the more recent BBC study corrects the faulty IBC count from earlier.

    About half a million people died in Iraq as a result of war-related causes between the US-led invasion in 2003 and mid-2011, an academic study suggests.
    University researchers from the US, Canada and Iraq based their estimate on randomised surveys of 2,000 households.
    The toll includes not only violent deaths from the invasion and subsequent insurgency, but avoidable fatalities linked to infrastructure collapse.
    It exceeds the 112,000 violent civilian deaths reported by Iraq Body Count.

    Iraq study estimates war-related deaths at 461,000 - BBC News
    OK, let's sum up:

    1) I make a statement regarding the number of deaths attributable to Saddam Hussein
    2) You challenge my claim.
    3) I document the source of the numbers I used in my claim.
    4) You accuse me of picking the high numbers when discussing Hussein and the low numbers when talking about deaths attributed to the US
    5) I ask you were I have ever discussed US death tolls
    6) Instead of proving your point you post an article on Iraqi casualties
    7) I read the article and point out that your source put the Iraqi deaths at 123,000
    8) You accuse me of choosing the low estimate again
    9) I point out to you that I used the high estimate from your source
    10 You cast away your original source in favor of a new source that has a... wait for it... higher estimate.

    So it took you this long to actually and demonstrably do what you falsely accused me of doing at the very beginning.

    Thanks for playing.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    There was no fighters, no terrorists in Iraq until Bush stepped foot in there. I will remind you that the invasion and occupation of Iraq had the (presumably????) opposite desired effect of causing an increase to global trrorism and made America less safe. The United States owns Iraq for having broken it, that includes any civilians killed by the Islamic extremists invited into Iraq by the U.S. Military's ill advised presence there.
    And Bush handed Obama a stable Iraq under the protection of the US military. Obama removed that protection. That isn't Bush's fault.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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