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Thread: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS[W:452]

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    What else is new? I remember stories during the first Iraq war in the 90s about how whenever the Iraqi troops would see a tank or a bunch of Americans, they would turn around and run away. Even if they outnumbered us.

    Sheesh.

    The Iraqi army is a joke. There is no way they defeat Isis without international help, bottom line.
    Ever have a dog that wouldn't hunt?

    Nothing to do but make him a house pet.

    They know they are apostates and hypocrites and they don't put any value in the idea of Democracy and man's laws. They know that ISIS is the JUST CAUSE. (Islamic-ally speaking)

    They are hopeless, by and large.

    It is better that we realize that this was a fight we had to try as the champions of Democracy but now that the results are conclusive, it is best to cut our losses and learn as much as we can from the experience and let those lessons positively color our future foreign policy.

    But, I predict that will not happen until we finally lose our silly idea of the nature of Islam.

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    So he didn't say it was a lie???

    Why did you say he did?
    Wow, you should take your meds, see the doc, or something if you missed that, I even helped by holding it for you, lol.

    In fact, according to an interactive database released by the Center for Public Integrity, Bush lied 232 times about weapons of mass destruction and 28 times about Iraq’s ties to Al Qaeda. He’s the winner by the way with those 260 lies. Colin Powell is runner up with a total of 254 lies.

    NOT JUST ONE LIE
    Last edited by Montecresto; 05-29-15 at 10:35 PM.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Wow, you should take your meds, see the doc, or something if you missed that, I even helped by holding it for you, lol.

    In fact, according to an interactive database released by the Center for Public Integrity, Bush lied 232 times about weapons of mass destruction and 28 times about Iraq’s ties to Al Qaeda. He’s the winner by the way with those 260 lies. Colin Powell is runner up with a total of 254 lies.

    NOT JUST ONE LIE
    We're not discussing your other claims regarding ever more lies. Just point out the one lie you claim Morrel made. Just one lie!

    I'll save you more dancing around. He did not say it was a lie. In fact it was you who lied about that. Do you appreciate the irony?

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    We're not discussing your other claims regarding ever more lies. Just point out the one lie you claim Morrel made. Just one lie!

    I'll save you more dancing around. He did not say it was a lie. In fact it was you who lied about that. Do you appreciate the irony?
    You've never saved yourself in a debate that I've seen as yet, I wouldn't be attempting any heroics. Your tripping over one lie, and I gave you over two hundred of them with a link, which you no doubt ignored. It's been a bitter pill to swallow, and though many have conceded the lies, hard liners hang, if by their fingernails, clinging in such desperation, perhaps to avoid the humiliation of having defended for so long, the lies that produced Americas largest foreign policy disaster in a century, maybe ever. What a position to be in.

    And there's more. Referring to the claims made by Bush, Cheney, and other administration officials that Saddam was in league with Al Qaeda, Morell noted, "What they were saying about the link between Iraq and Al Qaeda publicly was not what the intelligence community" had concluded. He added, "I think they were trying to make a stronger case for the war." That is, stronger than the truth would allow.

    Morell's remarks support the basic charge: Bush and Cheney were not misled by flawed intelligence; they used the flawed intelligence to mislead.
    Last edited by Montecresto; 05-30-15 at 12:58 AM.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    You've never saved yourself in a debate that I've seen as yet, I wouldn't be attempting any heroics. Your tripping over one lie, and I gave you over two hundred of them with a link, which you no doubt ignored. It's been a bitter pill to swallow, and though many have conceded the lies, hard liners hang, if by their fingernails, clinging in such desperation, perhaps to avoid the humiliation of having defended for so long, the lies that produced Americas largest foreign policy disaster in a century, maybe ever. What a position to be in.
    You said, "Nice try, we're quoting Michael Morell former CIA deputy director TELLING MSNBC that the intelligence was a big fat, BIG FAT, BIG FAT ****ING LIE!!!!!"

    Now, when asked to quote where Morell said anyone lied, you cannot do it. I know you just made it up and so do you. Why not just admit it and let it go rather than dancing on to other areas?

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    You said, "Nice try, we're quoting Michael Morell former CIA deputy director TELLING MSNBC that the intelligence was a big fat, BIG FAT, BIG FAT ****ING LIE!!!!!"

    Now, when asked to quote where Morell said anyone lied, you cannot do it. I know you just made it up and so do you. Why not just admit it and let it go rather than dancing on to other areas?
    Morell said that the administration lied, whereas I already told you the bolded emphasis was mine. Pointing out further lies isn't dancing about to other areas, it's the same exact area of LIES. You remain amongst an infinitesimal minority who have been buried in the documentation of the Bush administration lies and still yet refuses to accept it. I'm sorry for the burden you bear with that.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    That's cool, I wouldn't hold it against you for not being up to speed on American history and politics.
    Especially if it would hijack the thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
    The Republic of Dardania is the proper name for: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe...ification.html

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Tazmanian Devil View Post
    Thank you for that.

    From the cited source.

    "Both said that Iraq had no active WMD. Both were ignored or dismissed."

    An analogy.

    Why did (do) Liberal Americans ignore or dismiss the advice of Conservatives about Barack Obama?

    It's clear (in retrospect) that they were (are) right.

    I'd say it's because they had no way of verifying the validity of the advice at the time.

    And that right there is the crux of the matter of Saddam's WMD's.

    There was no way the reports could be confirmed as true or dismissed as B.S.

    And in the absence of believable intel the assumption HAD to be that he DID have them and that Israel WAS possibly at existential risk.

    And please remember that Saddam was given two or three weeks to either open up to COMPLETELY UNFETTERED weapons inspections OR to find exile in a welcoming country and with him could go all of his family, wives, mistresses and his ill gotten loot from government coffers.

    He refused.

    Game on.
    There is no doubt that Saddam could have prevented the invasion. This simple fact is lost on those that want to criticize the engagement. This is a pity, as it loses the important questions of how it came that we found ourselves in a situation in which war was a correct response, although, it was expensive and should have been avoided.

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    Interesting! Rather than defend your number of 1 million killed by Saddam, you chose instead to challenge me on the magnitude of the exaggeration. So, thank you for conceding the point that you did grossly exaggerate the number.....

    ....leaving us to simply argue over the degree of your gross overstatement.

    Note that one major atrocity that was cited in the previous posted article, that is the ONE really big atrocity of Hussein's rule, was 1988 Al-Anfal Campaign. The article I posted cited up to 182,000 slaughtered. That number, however, is the number reported by the Kurds (upon whom the atrocity was committed). Historically, those on the receiving end of such things tend to overstate. The number that Human Rights Watch reports is 50-100,000. No question that is a major atrocity, but its back to my point that your 1 million number grossly overstated Hussein's killings by 10 fold.

    Again, we appreciate you conceding that you did grossly overstate and now we are just arguing about the magnitude of it.... which is rather pointless.
    Nope, I was pointing out that in your accusation of exaggeration on my part you actually exaggerated.

    Al-anfal: 182,000 (from your source)

    Systemic starvation under Oil-for-Food abuses: 400,000-500,000

    Repression of 1991 uprising: up to 280,000

    Total: 962,000

    The only gross overstatement was made by you.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    There is no doubt that Saddam could have prevented the invasion. This simple fact is lost on those that want to criticize the engagement. This is a pity, as it loses the important questions of how it came that we found ourselves in a situation in which war was a correct response, although, it was expensive and should have been avoided.
    I am heartened by your reply.

    Thank you!

    I get tired of the same old recitation of LW talking points or RW less than inspired justifications for the war.

    You are a thinking man. And I appreciate your post.

    But, in light of current events, which has prompted many intellectual excursions into the hazy and as yet unwrit future, I can imagine an unexpected benefit from the invasion which may make the whole thing look like a bargain in the long run.

    ISIS.

    ISIS has shown us that when push comes to shove Middle Eastern Muslims place a greater
    value and importance on Islamic doctrine than on Democracy.

    The two are at odds.

    And in the face of the TRUEST followers and warriors of Mohammed we see that those who could and initially do sign up to fight for their own freedom and Democracy and man's law (i.e. the Iraqi military) flee Allah's Mujaheddin.

    Sometime down the line that knowledge could be priceless.

    When the SHTF M.E. Muslims will side with Islam before they would side with Democracy.
    Last edited by Tazmanian Devil; 05-30-15 at 04:06 PM.

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