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Thread: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS[W:452]

  1. #171
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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Basic healthcare was free for everyone, and generally dirt cheap for anything that requires more than a simple visit to the doctor. Medicine prices were heavily discounted by the government. Things like birth control pills were made available, usually for free, for Iraqi women. Kids were vaccinated door-to-door by the government. Medical care reached 97% of the urban population and 71% of the rural population. Mortality rate was 50/1000 LB, infant mortality was 40/1000 LB. Hospitals were built in every city and the Iraqi healthcare system was known to be of very high quality, Iraq was actually about to gain developed country status, versus being a developing country.[16]

    What are some of Saddam Hussein's positive achievements and progressive contributions to Iraq and the Arab World? - Quora
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    [/B]

    What apologetics that is?? There's always pressure to falsify facts to achieve desired results.

    "We want the facts to fit the preconceptions. When they don't, it is easier to ignore the facts than change the preconceptions".

    -American author Jessamyn West
    As usual, you put things in other peoples mouths. But I did not say, what you imply. But thanks to such maneuvering, it becomes quite clear how weak your arguments are.

  3. #173
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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by MVictorP View Post
    No one wants to die - unless for desperation. There are no humans that are eager to die. Even the suicide bombers must have qualms about dying. Most of them do it not out of envy, but out of need.
    Again, the existence of a suicide bomb waiting list for ISIS stands against your willfully ignorant belief... as do the 9/11 hijackers who, to the man, were not destitute or desperate. Whether you believe it or not does not change the reality that there are a lot of people out there who don't fit your paradigm.

    Yes - absolutely. What, you prefer the guy with a stick versus a tank? Probably, if you're the one in the tank. IMO it's worse when the party blowing up schools, water treatment plants, hospitals etc is the one party with the means to do otherwise.
    So when a suicide bomber blows up worshipers in a mosque are the worshipers in tanks? ISIS has tanks and they still have a waiting list for suicide bombers. The world just doesn't work the way you want it to. Reality proves you wrong.

    Dying as a soldier in any war is seen as noble by a majority of people. Wouldn't yourself find it noble if one german officer killed himself while trying to kill Hitler? When your ideals are firm, you are ready to suffer and die for them. It's that simple.
    Again, you are confusing ready-to-die with want-to-die. Until you see the difference you will remain bogged down in your inane equivalencies.

    So... Arlington cemetery, and all these ceremonies in the memory of the dead at war... is the evidence that the USA are a death cult too? Why do you want to die?
    Do you see any parties being thrown at the grave sites? When a family gets word that there son or daughter died in a war, do we cheer? Is it our goal for our sons and daughters to die?

    Personal gain... after they died. Ha ha ha funny guy.
    It doesn't matter one bit what you think of their beliefs. Surely you know that the suicide bomber believes that he will be rewarded for his wanton carnage in the afterlife? I mean, if you can't even grasp that simple fact then you are lost.

    There are no sides that wants to die. Period.
    Saying it over and over again doesn't make it so. It just makes you look stubbornly ignorant.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Basic healthcare was free for everyone, and generally dirt cheap for anything that requires more than a simple visit to the doctor. Medicine prices were heavily discounted by the government. Things like birth control pills were made available, usually for free, for Iraqi women. Kids were vaccinated door-to-door by the government. Medical care reached 97% of the urban population and 71% of the rural population. Mortality rate was 50/1000 LB, infant mortality was 40/1000 LB. Hospitals were built in every city and the Iraqi healthcare system was known to be of very high quality, Iraq was actually about to gain developed country status, versus being a developing country.[16]

    What are some of Saddam Hussein's positive achievements and progressive contributions to Iraq and the Arab World? - Quora


    Healthcare for everyone*




    (* - Except the millions we drove off their land in our ethnic cleansing campaigns, or fed into plastic shredders, or dissolved in acid baths, or raped to death, or shot and buried in shallow graves or gassed!)


    Apparently if the US decided to run murder and cleansing campaign against the 15% of the US population without healthcare, driving the survivors into neighboring countries then Montecresto would call that universal health care!
    Last edited by jmotivator; 05-27-15 at 08:28 AM.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

  5. #175
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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Again, the existence of a suicide bomb waiting list for ISIS stands against your willfully ignorant belief... as do the 9/11 hijackers who, to the man, were not destitute or desperate. Whether you believe it or not does not change the reality that there are a lot of people out there who don't fit your paradigm.
    Okay - listen here:

    We are all humans here. By nature, humans want to live long, prosperous lives.

    Being muslim does not make any one less human.

    I don't see what so hard to comprehand here. You are trying to tell me that there is a group of beings here that are not human - a group who want to des-humanize, in other terms? I won't drink your disgusting cool-aid, my friend.

    So when a suicide bomber blows up worshipers in a mosque are the worshipers in tanks? ISIS has tanks and they still have a waiting list for suicide bombers. The world just doesn't work the way you want it to. Reality proves you wrong.
    IS has suicide bombers because they can't get high-altitude bombers, drones or guided missiles. If they had, would you think that they would still rely on suicide bombers? Israel doesn't need suicide bombers - they can safely target hospitals from a safe distance.

    Be it in the US or in Palestine, you will always find people ready to die for their beliefs. That, is reality.

    Again, you are confusing ready-to-die with want-to-die. Until you see the difference you will remain bogged down in your inane equivalencies.
    All "want-to-dies" are really "ready-to-dies" passed throught a chauvinistic process.

    Do you see any parties being thrown at the grave sites? When a family gets word that there son or daughter died in a war, do we cheer? Is it our goal for our sons and daughters to die?
    Google "Baruch Goldstein".

    I have seen Yanks cheering for the destruction they caused, yes. It's quite common. Some cultures cheers at the passing of their closed ones, too.

    It doesn't matter one bit what you think of their beliefs. Surely you know that the suicide bomber believes that he will be rewarded for his wanton carnage in the afterlife? I mean, if you can't even grasp that simple fact then you are lost.
    Post-death personal gain? Ha ha ha. I love it.
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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    I do not think I said, what you insinuate. Of course there were consequences of removing a harsh dictator. And we did not do a sufficient job of making peace and stability. And yes, the snippets sound like there had been grounds to want to be easy on the dictator at the time of the statements. And? So what? That has nothing to do with it.

    Does that mean that the decision to enforce the Resolution was wrong?
    Does it mean that Saddam was not acting against the Security Council demands?
    Does it mean that Saddam was not hiding the fact from the UN that he had no more wmd?
    And why did this 'harsh dictator' so suddenly need removing using massive force post 9/11 ? Why not anytime in the previous decade ?

    And really now. If you want to use information as proof and want people to read it, use unbiased sources.
    Please provide your evidence that these sources have misrepresented what was stated and done to engineer the Iraq war ?

    And please something more valid than second hand opinion. And by that I do not mean the opinion out of context by someone like Brennan, who is there describing a very normal occurrence in large organizations. Of course there was pressure. There is always pressure for results.
    Brennan clearly had some very deep reservations about what was going on at the time and said so. If he was misquoted then please illustrate that fact
    Last edited by flogger; 05-27-15 at 09:27 AM.

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by MVictorP View Post
    Okay - listen here:

    We are all humans here. By nature, humans want to live long, prosperous lives.

    Being muslim does not make any one less human.

    I don't see what so hard to comprehand here. You are trying to tell me that there is a group of beings here that are not human - a group who want to des-humanize, in other terms? I won't drink your disgusting cool-aid, my friend.
    Hey, I see you continue to run from reality. There is really no point in debating this with you.

    Now that you are calling me disgusting for pointing out the realities of the world you seem incapable of comprehending we can part ways.



    IS has suicide bombers because they can't get high-altitude bombers, drones or guided missiles. If they had, would you think that they would still rely on suicide bombers? Israel doesn't need suicide bombers - they can safely target hospitals from a safe distance.
    False.

    Be it in the US or in Palestine, you will always find people ready to die for their beliefs. That, is reality.
    Suicide bombers want to die. I am sorry the world doesn't match your understanding of it.

    All "want-to-dies" are really "ready-to-dies" passed throught a chauvinistic process.
    False.

    Google "Baruch Goldstein".
    No need to Google him. Would you trust Baruch Goldstein with a nuclear weapon?

    I have seen Yanks cheering for the destruction they caused, yes. It's quite common. Some cultures cheers at the passing of their closed ones, too.
    Cool story bro.

    Post-death personal gain? Ha ha ha. I love it.
    They believe it regardless of your inability to accept it.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

  8. #178
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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    And why did this 'harsh dictator' so suddenly need removing using massive force post 9/11 ? Why not anytime in the previous decade ?



    Please provide your evidence that these sources have misrepresented what was stated and done to engineer the Iraq war ?



    Brennan clearly had some very deep reservations about what was going on at the time and said so. If he was misquoted then please illustrate that fact
    1. If you go back and follow the developments, you will understand quite quickly how the situation developed between Iraq 1 and 2. You will no longer be surprised.
    2. Nice try. But I am not going to waste my time. Let it be enough that I will read any primary information you would like to use to show your assertions are not slander.
    3. If Brennan had reservations that is understandable. Intelligence information is always difficult and usually statistical in the sense that you are dealing with probabilities. That was probably the largest mistake the administration made, when it did not base the invasion on Saddam's noncooperation using our intelligence concerning individual situations. Bush had more or less done that in his speach before the General Assembly and I was rather dissapointed to see poePowell take a different tack, which he fumbled.

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    1. If you go back and follow the developments, you will understand quite quickly how the situation developed between Iraq 1 and 2. You will no longer be surprised.
    I am very well aware of the developments and nothing whatsoever existed that warranted the massive response at that time. This whole conflict was engineered to suit US domestic political considerations post 9/11 nothing more

    2. Nice try. But I am not going to waste my time. Let it be enough that I will read any primary information you would like to use to show your assertions are not slander.
    I've made no assertions and have used statements from individuals intimately involved with this whole affair. I'm still waiting for you to show how they have been misrepresented in any way ?
    3. If Brennan had reservations that is understandable. Intelligence information is always difficult and usually statistical in the sense that you are dealing with probabilities.
    Except when you deliberately massage the intelligence in order to pursue a desired political agenda

    That was probably the largest mistake the administration made,
    Yes a very deliberate one though. Bush got his second term out of it so it worked a treat

  10. #180
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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Hey, I see you continue to run from reality. There is really no point in debating this with you.

    Now that you are calling me disgusting for pointing out the realities of the world you seem incapable of comprehending we can part ways.





    False.



    Suicide bombers want to die. I am sorry the world doesn't match your understanding of it.



    False.



    No need to Google him. Would you trust Baruch Goldstein with a nuclear weapon?



    Cool story bro.



    They believe it regardless of your inability to accept it.
    I would like to answer your post but I see no argumentation in there, apart for "Yes it's true" or "No it's false". Is that what you look like when you've been beaten?
    "That Was All I Had To Say"
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