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Thread: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS[W:452]

  1. #161
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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Parker View Post
    Carter saying Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' sparks more criticism, concern about Obama plan | Fox News

    Here we go again with our desperate attempts to train those who will shoot at our backs once they will be left alone.

    They say you can take a horse to the water, but you cannot make him drink. Bush Jr. invaded the wrong country (as if he could invade the right one). Iraqis understand they will die from ISIS attacks, but many of them got addicted to ISIS propaganda. So both facts are against US there - the fact Iraqis are muslims makes them sympathize isis and they never stopped treating us as invaders so I'm not surprised they don't want to fight.

    It seems Pentagon's idea was to create non-US troops to fight ISIS and to oppose terrorists without getting involved to a direct confrontation.

    So, does it mean we spend money on training future terrorists?
    The Iraqi army is just as cowardly as the South Vietnamese army, and we get the same result.
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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Really ? I've got two words for you then.

    Tonkin Gulf
    The Tonkin affair exemplifies why that type of thing happens relrelatively infrequently as does Watergate. The mechanisms the society has developed since the ascension to global power to prevent the misuse of so much power are relatively strong and intrusive. It is also the reason not to let up and I think doubt commendable. That is also why I resaresearched it as well as possible reading literally thousands of pages of description and analysis and checking the primary documents, where possible. And in this case, I think that you are very probably wrong. But should you have primary information that is stronger than the two snippets above, I will certainly read it and think about it.

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    JFC are you ever naive. Yes Lilly White US would never do such a thing.
    Just because it is not the way the country works does not mean what happens cannot be horrendous. We both know that. But when the information is consistent with normal and desirable behavior? And it is quite possible that the Administration did construct a conspiracy and publish lies and was able to hide it from the public. And maybe the large number of people that had to be party to the information. ....
    But as I pointed out, the information I have seen was before the invasion and in its aftermath relatively massive. This type of analysis is always statistical and one can always miss the important bits. But in this case,I will be surprised if it turns out that Obama has been sitting on tapes that provide proof that Bush lied.

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Just because it is not the way the country works does not mean what happens cannot be horrendous. We both know that. But when the information is consistent with normal and desirable behavior? And it is quite possible that the Administration did construct a conspiracy and publish lies and was able to hide it from the public. And maybe the large number of people that had to be party to the information. ....
    But as I pointed out, the information I have seen was before the invasion and in its aftermath relatively massive. This type of analysis is always statistical and one can always miss the important bits. But in this case,I will be surprised if it turns out that Obama has been sitting on tapes that provide proof that Bush lied.
    Yes it is hard to prove that a mistake was intentional and not just plain stupidity. That has always been a plus for Bush as he does stupid so well. Bu there are clues like the pet name of their #1 informer, "curveball". I wonder if you know what throwing someone a curveball means?

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    Yes it is hard to prove that a mistake was intentional and not just plain stupidity. That has always been a plus for Bush as he does stupid so well. Bu there are clues like the pet name of their #1 informer, "curveball". I wonder if you know what throwing someone a curveball means?
    There can be no doubt that Putin played the game running up to Iraq 2 much better than the US Administration with the winners being Putin and Schröder. Everyone else lost. But the decision was not stupid in the usual sense.

    PS: I do not think that Curveball was a number 1 informer. If one was following the situation there were doubts about the provenance of that information even, when Powell was using it. But Powell was never very good and in this case he was an idiot. Luckily the episode stopped talk about his being presidential material dead.

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    The Tonkin affair exemplifies why that type of thing happens relrelatively infrequently as does Watergate. The mechanisms the society has developed since the ascension to global power to prevent the misuse of so much power are relatively strong and intrusive. It is also the reason not to let up and I think doubt commendable. That is also why I resaresearched it as well as possible reading literally thousands of pages of description and analysis and checking the primary documents, where possible. And in this case, I think that you are very probably wrong. But should you have primary information that is stronger than the two snippets above, I will certainly read it and think about it.
    So you really think after 12 years Iraq just suddenly became much more dangerous post 9/11 ? So much so that they required an immediate and massive military response ? Do you have any evidence for this because as illustrated both Powell and Rice didn't seem to think so just beforehand ?

    The Lie That Got Us In: The Bush Administration Knew There Were No WMDs in Iraq « Antiwar.com Blog

    The Bush administration exerted significant pressure on the intelligence community to provide justification for the Iraq War. According to John Brennan, who was Deputy Director of the CIA at the time, “we were being asked to do things and to make sure that that justification was out there.” “At the time there were a lot of concerns that it was being politicized by certain individuals within the administration that wanted to get that intelligence base that would justify going forward with the war,” Brennan told PBS. When asked who was exerting this pressure, Brennan said “Some of the neocons” in the administration “were determined to make sure that the intelligence was going to support the ultimate decision.” As CBS News reported in 2009, “barely five hours after American Airlines Flight 77 plowed into the Pentagon, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld was telling his aides to come up with plans for striking Iraq.”
    Last edited by flogger; 05-27-15 at 02:58 AM.

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    So you really think after 12 years Iraq just suddenly became much more dangerous post 9/11 ? So much so that they required an immediate and massive military response ? Do you have any evidence for this because as illustrated both Powell and Rice didn't seem to think so just beforehand ?

    The Lie That Got Us In: The Bush Administration Knew There Were No WMDs in Iraq « Antiwar.com Blog

    The Bush administration exerted significant pressure on the intelligence community to provide justification for the Iraq War. According to John Brennan, who was Deputy Director of the CIA at the time, “we were being asked to do things and to make sure that that justification was out there.” “At the time there were a lot of concerns that it was being politicized by certain individuals within the administration that wanted to get that intelligence base that would justify going forward with the war,” Brennan told PBS. When asked who was exerting this pressure, Brennan said “Some of the neocons” in the administration “were determined to make sure that the intelligence was going to support the ultimate decision.” As CBS News reported in 2009, “barely five hours after American Airlines Flight 77 plowed into the Pentagon, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld was telling his aides to come up with plans for striking Iraq.”
    I do not think I said, what you insinuate. Of course there were consequences of removing a harsh dictator. And we did not do a sufficient job of making peace and stability. And yes, the snippets sound like there had been grounds to want to be easy on the dictator at the time of the statements. And? So what? That has nothing to do with it.
    Does that mean that the decision to enforce the Resolution was wrong?
    Does it mean that Saddam was not acting against the Security Council demands?
    Does it mean that Saddam was not hiding the fact from the UN that he had no more wmd?

    And really now. If you want to use information as proof and want people to read it, use unbiased sources. And please something more valid than second hand opinion. And by that I do not mean the opinion out of context by someone like Brennan, who is there describing a very normal occurrence in large organizations. Of course there was pressure. There is always pressure for results.

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Nursmate View Post
    I am VERY pro-Soldier and very proud of our Military. It bothers me to see the condition that some of our Solider's are returning..fighting a war that will never be won. Even tho a Soldier makes the sacrifice to protect his or her country does not mean that we as a Nation should be reckless where we send them. The region is not worth the casualties or the resources. They will never separate religion from government and this is a must for peace. I do not think WE failed, I think the Iraqi people and government failed. We gave them a chance and they blew it. There isn't anything left to do, except maybe built a base there for stability, or stake an American flag there...since we have spent so much $$$, we practically own Iraq. j/k
    Powell did say, "if you break it, you own it"!!!!

    Not only was Iraq not worth it, it was wholly unnecessary.

    The National Campaign for Eradication of Illiteracy:
    Refusing to send your child to school at the age of six was a crime punished by law, usually by prison time, under Saddam's regime starting from the late '70s and up until he was removed from power, and yes, that did include girls. Saddam was actually very supportive of women in that regard. In 1976, Iraq hosted the "Baghdad Conference for the Eradication of Illiteracy". Shortly after, he initiated the "National Campaign for Eradication of Illiteracy". The results were very positive, so much that Iraq was awarded The United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) prize for eradicating illiteracy in 1982, just three years after Saddam became president.[1]

    Education was made free to everyone in Iraq under Saddam's regime. This not only includes grade school, but also covers college and graduate level education.[2] It started in the early '70s and resulted, by the mid '80s, in an unprecedented 100% enrollment rates, and of course helped build a better educated middle class. Those years were called "The Golden Years" for the Iraqi Education System. [2][3]

    Nationalization of Oil:

    Agriculture and Empowering of Farmers:

    Helping The Middle Class:
    Saddam had numerous achievements in this area. Iraqis, and especially government employees, were given small pieces of land for them to build houses on, which was complimented by loans specifically tailored for that purpose. Houses and apartments were also given to some government employees. That either came in the form of living on government property without paying rent for college professors for example, but also manifested in building housing units that were given for free for people to own. Another way to give out housing units was by encouraging communities to collaboratively build housing complexes on government-owned land for those in need. I was unable to find any citations for this, feel free to post what you find in the comments and I'll update the answer accordingly.
    Last edited by Montecresto; 05-27-15 at 06:45 AM.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  9. #169
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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Just because it is not the way the country works does not mean what happens cannot be horrendous. We both know that. But when the information is consistent with normal and desirable behavior? And it is quite possible that the Administration did construct a conspiracy and publish lies and was able to hide it from the public. And maybe the large number of people that had to be party to the information. ....
    But as I pointed out, the information I have seen was before the invasion and in its aftermath relatively massive. This type of analysis is always statistical and one can always miss the important bits. But in this case,I will be surprised if it turns out that Obama has been sitting on tapes that provide proof that Bush lied.
    "Tapes"? Presidents do not prosecute former presidents, that's unfortunately never going to happen. The best one can hope for is pardon, lol.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    I do not think I said, what you insinuate. Of course there were consequences of removing a harsh dictator. And we did not do a sufficient job of making peace and stability. And yes, the snippets sound like there had been grounds to want to be easy on the dictator at the time of the statements. And? So what? That has nothing to do with it.
    Does that mean that the decision to enforce the Resolution was wrong?
    Does it mean that Saddam was not acting against the Security Council demands?
    Does it mean that Saddam was not hiding the fact from the UN that he had no more wmd?

    And really now. If you want to use information as proof and want people to read it, use unbiased sources. And please something more valid than second hand opinion. And by that I do not mean the opinion out of context by someone like Brennan, who is there describing a very normal occurrence in large organizations. Of course there was pressure. There is always pressure for results.


    What apologetics that is?? There's always pressure to falsify facts to achieve desired results.

    "We want the facts to fit the preconceptions. When they don't, it is easier to ignore the facts than change the preconceptions".

    -American author Jessamyn West
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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