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Thread: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS[W:452]

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    - Possibly not. Possibly they would have done it differently. "What if" won't get us anywhere. At the time and with the knowledge available it was decision that was not wrong.
    But they did have the knowledge that Iraq was no WMD threat and both Colin Powell and Condi Rice were quite up front about it before 9/11

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUNsv66m8Rw

    - You are right that politics is often about statistical type knowledge.
    And its often just outright lies that represent a fabricated means to an end too. The whole WMD thing was just such a lie. Bush needed the Iraq war in light of his failure to find his chosen culprit for 9/11 in Afghanistan. Failure was not an option and another bogeyman had to be found. Hussein fit the bill nicely with the prospect of a short victorious war before the 2004 elections. What wasn't to like ?

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    After leading in the region for so many years, sure a stumble to allow ISIS to raise, wouldn't it be the height of irresponsibility to now just walk away?

    After all Pottery Barn rule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, true?

    How much harsher the judgement and distrustful the allies if the US just walks away? Can we really afford that?
    Y'all really don't get it. It's not a matter of overwhelming military might. It's a matter of religious differences, Sunni v. Shi'a. It's almost never a good idea to get in between two people who are fighting, because all too often you get hurt and they both wind up hating you. Same thing there - it doesn't matter who we side with, neither side really wants us there because both of them believe that we don't belong there. To them, all we are is a tool to use to attack the other side...or to rally the faithful i.e. "See how the Great Satan is on the side of the apostate Sunni! Let's rally and defeat them!"

    There's a time to take action...and there's a time to walk away and let them sort things out by themselves. This is one of the latter. Thankfully, Obama seems to understand that, too.
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  3. #113
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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    That wasn't the height of his killing spree. That was taken in 1983.
    Which was the bloodiest year of the Iran/Iraq war. A war Hussein initiated with barely a murmer from the US unlike with Kuwait a decade later

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    - Possibly not. Possibly they would have done it differently. "What if" won't get us anywhere. At the time and with the knowledge available it was decision that was not wrong.
    I remember that time and the forum discussions I had when it was unfolding itself: There never was any positive proof that it was worth the venture, ever. Your politicians were, at that time, focused on the outrage of 9-11, and it was all the proof that many short-sighted people needed to have to let go the dogs of war.

    - You are right that politics is often about statistical type knowledge. In the case of Saddam the debriefing of the his inner circle indicated that he wanted the neighborhood to think he still had the wmd and that Putin, Schröder and Chirac would protect him from invasion. Even this might be wrong and the various people lying, but it is a believable explanation.
    Agreed.

    - Yes. As far as I am concerned it is better Israel have Nukes than Iraq or Iran. No doubt in my mind.
    Why is that? Nukes can stabilize a region much more than 15 years of peacekeeping. Where's there nukes on both sides, people tend to keep cooler. For my part, I fear much more Israeli nukes than whatever WMDs the Iraqi might have had - they look like "if we lose a war, we suicide everything" kinda nukes, in the hands of, once again, a xenophobic, aggressive military nation that follows the Uber-race vs the Unter-ones narrative in its quest for lenbensraum.

    That would change, if the the UN were reliably responsible for robustly protecting populations and stopping wars. But as it is? Everyone responsible for family and friends themselves? Nope. Not now the way it is.
    The UN only has the strength you, the USA, chose to give it. The US does not want a strong UN, and so, they veto about everything that would make them so. You have only yourself to blame if you think the UN isn't strong enough.

    You see, it is not a question of fairness and all that. It is much more archaic. It is a question of allies and enemies in deadly circumstances.
    With allies like Israel, you don't need enemies - Israel will find them for you, when they're not actively trying to undermine or manipulate you. If Iraq did half of the wrongs that Israel did upon you, IMO it would have been reasons enough to nuke them into the glass age.

    And if you guys want to be policemen of the world, it's about time you learn about justice and consistancy in your politics. Otherwise, leave that to others. It won't matter soon anyway - you had your turn at the bat, and got retired because of all those foul balls. Just get out of Iraq and stop doing this, willya?
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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Which was the bloodiest year of the Iran/Iraq war. A war Hussein initiated with barely a murmer from the US unlike with Kuwait a decade later
    You are confusing war casualties with murder. Saddam's atrocities began in earnest years after that photo was taken with the Al-Anfal genocide of the Iraqi Kurds. This lead to the US dropping support for Hussein.

    I mean we can play the photo shoot game all day if you want. Was FDR responsible for Joseph Stalin? I have pictures of the two together!
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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    But they did have the knowledge that Iraq was no WMD threat and both Colin Powell and Condi Rice were quite up front about it before 9/11

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUNsv66m8Rw



    And its often just outright lies that represent a fabricated means to an end too. The whole WMD thing was just such a lie. Bush needed the Iraq war in light of his failure to find his chosen culprit for 9/11 in Afghanistan. Failure was not an option and another bogeyman had to be found. Hussein fit the bill nicely with the prospect of a short victorious war before the 2004 elections. What wasn't to like ?
    Do you have the context of the YouTube?
    without it the snippets are not of value. This is especially true after Saddam risking his life rather than showing the inspectors what had become of them.

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by MVictorP View Post
    Why is that? Nukes can stabilize a region much more than 15 years of peacekeeping. Where's there nukes on both sides, people tend to keep cooler. For my part, I fear much more Israeli nukes than whatever WMDs the Iraqi might have had - they look like "if we lose a war, we suicide everything" kinda nukes, in the hands of, once again, a xenophobic, aggressive military nation that follows the Uber-race vs the Unter-ones narrative in its quest for lenbensraum.
    M.A.D. only works when neither side wants to die.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Y'all really don't get it. It's not a matter of overwhelming military might. It's a matter of religious differences, Sunni v. Shi'a. It's almost never a good idea to get in between two people who are fighting, because all too often you get hurt and they both wind up hating you. Same thing there - it doesn't matter who we side with, neither side really wants us there because both of them believe that we don't belong there. To them, all we are is a tool to use to attack the other side...or to rally the faithful i.e. "See how the Great Satan is on the side of the apostate Sunni! Let's rally and defeat them!"

    There's a time to take action...and there's a time to walk away and let them sort things out by themselves. This is one of the latter. Thankfully, Obama seems to understand that, too.
    I'll agree that with 20/20 hindsight, going into Iraq was a bad idea, and that the decisions leading up to it was based on bad intel and / or analysis from a wide variety of sources that seemed to corroborate each other. 20/20 hindsight is kinda like that.

    Going forward, I'm not sure if it's the best idea to disengage, walk away, and watch sectarian violence armed with nuclear weapons and their proliferation take the Middle East, and yes, that means extremist Islamic groups, the suicide bombers, gain these powerful weapons to sneak into someplace and detonate. It sounds like one of the many possible scenarios leading to the apocalypse, if not in biblical terms, certainly in terms destruction, contamination and human strife.

    I'm convinced that even if Saddam or his sons had remained in power, this pot would have boiled over at some point. I'd be happy with just keeping the arms fire nuclear free.
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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Do you have the context of the YouTube?
    without it the snippets are not of value. This is especially true after Saddam risking his life rather than showing the inspectors what had become of them.
    What had become of them were that what remained after the Iran/Iraq war was corroded unusable and scattered all over the place. There was therefore nothing to show. The US would simply have moved the goalposts anyway whatever he did because they already knew there was nothing to find

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    Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    But he is gone, im talking about right now.
    And we are talking about being sick and tired of more wars to go back and fix what previous wars have broken!!! No, hell no. Go get Cameron to do something!
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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