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Warren Buffett: $15 minimum wage will hurt the working class

Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

Thrilla said:
I'm still confused over what you mean by "debt free access"....is there another meaning to this beyond "free"?... if so, please elaborate.
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i mean that all students who complete their post secondary degrees should incur no debt, like high school graduates. a compromise point would be to make it need based, and to require completion of the degree.
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

Helix said:
i mean that all students who complete their post secondary degrees should incur no debt, like high school graduates. a compromise point would be to make it need based, and to require completion of the degree.
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it still sounds like you are saying college should be free to the students.....but don't want to actually say it.

what do you mean by "needs based"?

I'm very open and supportive to reducing the inflated costs of a college education in order to made them affordable, but I can't support removing value from those degrees.

what about masters programs and doctorates.. will those be free as well or will you allow those to continue to hold value?
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

Thrilla said:
it still sounds like you are saying college should be free to the students.....but don't want to actually say it.

what do you mean by "needs based"?

I'm very open and supportive to reducing the inflated costs of a college education in order to made them affordable, but I can't support removing value from those degrees.

what about masters programs and doctorates.. will those be free as well or will you allow those to continue to hold value?
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ok, cool. post secondary education should cause the student to incur as much debt as high school currently does. it's better to spend the money on that than to spend it on welfare or war.
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

Helix said:
ok, cool. post secondary education should cause the student to incur as much debt as high school currently does. it's better to spend the money on that than to spend it on welfare or war.
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that's a lot of words to say "a College education should be completely free"

as you don't seem willing to expand beyond your desire to see college be free, there's not much more we can talk about here...... I can only leave you with a single piece of advise.

...don't hold your breath. :)
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

Thrilla said:
that's a lot of words to say "a College education should be completely free"

as you don't seem willing to expand beyond your desire to see college be free, there's not much more we can talk about here...... I can only leave you with a single piece of advise.

...don't hold your breath. :)
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i have a piece of advise as well :

enjoy paying entitlements instead.

:)
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

Helix said:
i have a piece of advise as well :

enjoy paying entitlements instead.

:)
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what do you mean "instead"....you can't honestly believe entitlements go away when college becomes magically "free".

free college will have one good result though.... we'll have highly educated McDonalds cashiers.;)
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

Thrilla said:
what do you mean "instead"....you can't honestly believe entitlements go away when college becomes magically "free".
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college graduates need less public assistance. should i post the chart again?

Thrilla said:
free college will have one good result though.... we'll have highly educated McDonalds cashiers.;)
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be careful not to make physical contact with the plebes. you might sully yourself.
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

Deuce said:
Have you seen McDonald's "example budget" for minimum wage workers?
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Yup. But, as I recall, they were including lots more than eating.

Which part of full-time was confusing?
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That's interesting. You think that second income earners and interns don't work 40 hours a week?

Only in the Econ 101 universe of college sophomore libertarians.
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:lol: failure to respond.

No, seriously, if people won't work for you for what you are offering, but you need them to work for you, you will have to offer more to attract them. That's why, for example, people make different wages. It's not random, nor based on employer's random feelings of goodwill. Engineers earn more than burger-flippers because there is higher demand for them relative to supply, not because employers of engineers all decided to help them with their student loans.

Yes there is. Workers losing the roof over their heads and no longer being employable.
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:shrug: in that scenario, we have massive unemployment among our low-skilled workers, and plenty of dual-income low-wage or medium wage, or even higher wage houses. Additionally, we have public housing. There remains no forcing function.
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

Helix said:
look at the chart again, and the average debt incurred. that's a paywall.



most of them cost a lot of money. i'm arguing in favor of debt free access to post secondary education.



there's a reward for the entire country as well. we all benefit from a deep intellectual pool, and putting a paywall in front of it is stupid policy.



it's not a fallacy. look at the chart.
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sure it is a fallacy there is a paywall so it should be free.

I guess their house should be free
I guess their rent should be free
I guess their car should be free

technically according to you these are all paywalls as well since they call cost considerable amount of money. lol
that is why it is a fallacy.

it isn't debt free as someone has to pay for it. you refuse to pay for it so I guess someone else will have to. since none of the other liberals in this thread wanted to pay for it
I guess people will have to pay for it themselves.

college debt is not a paywall. CC debt is a paywall. payday loans are pay walls.
college debt is not a paywall.

if they don't have the drive to fill out the FASFA forms now what makes you think they will attend class and work to get good grades?
or should they just be given A's for showing up to class because working for grades is to hard and not fair.

that seems to be your argument on everything. it's not fair it should be free.
yep there is reward for the country by instilling work ethics in people. which is what college makes you do work.

saw a girl on the news that probably just cost herself a job. as she was complaining that it was to hard to work and go to school.

call the whhaaamublance. of course your idea would tax someone to pay for her housing and food and transportation. although YOU won't pay for it. someone else should.
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

Helix said:
college graduates need less public assistance.
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We are in an education bubble in which college graduates suffer under large debts without commensurate incomes. A Bachelors in Identity Studies and a Masters in Sociology doesn't really help you have more earning power as a barista at Starbucks.

You don't need college to be a good barista. Nor to be a good plumber. Nor to be a good electrician, or a construction worker, or receptionist, or landscaper, or butcher or baker or candlestick maker, nor is the fact of those individuals having a degree likely to increase their pay. Arguing that Everyone Should Go To College Because People Who Go To College Need Less Social Safety Net, is like arguing that everyone should become an hedge fund manager so we can all be rich.
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

ludin said:
it isn't debt free as someone has to pay for it. you refuse to pay for it so I guess someone else will have to. since none of the other liberals in this thread wanted to pay for it
I guess people will have to pay for it themselves.
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Bingo. There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.

yep there is reward for the country by instilling work ethics in people. which is what college makes you do work.

saw a girl on the news that probably just cost herself a job. as she was complaining that it was to hard to work and go to school.
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:) Actually Students who work get better grades. Something about having skin in the game and a developed work ethic....


of course your idea would tax someone to pay for her housing and food and transportation. although YOU won't pay for it. someone else should.
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He recently graduated with an advanced degree. My bet is that he has a bunch of school debt, and so this is the issue staring him in the face.
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

Helix said:
ok, cool. post secondary education should cause the student to incur as much debt as high school currently does. it's better to spend the money on that than to spend it on welfare or war.
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So... making college free to upper middle class kids will not only cause Russia, China, North Korea, and the Islamic State to put down their arms, but it will also cause lower class kids to stop having babies and dropping out of high school while functionally illiterate?
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

Gimmesometruth said:
LOL...declining welfare has no forcing method....even though here we are in a thread about a grass roots movement to force employers to increase wages.

Oh my.
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Declining Welfare has forcing functions on the recipients. The existence of serious welfare cliffs, for example, disincentivizes increasing ones' income.
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

cpwill said:
Bingo. There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.



:) Actually Students who work get better grades. Something about having skin in the game and a developed work ethic....




He recently graduated with an advanced degree. My bet is that he has a bunch of school debt, and so this is the issue staring him in the face.
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no there isn't, and I would rather have kids that are going to do nothing but party and fail have to pay the money back than all the risk be on the taxpayer.
yep I couldn't count the number of students that were getting a free lunch that expect other people to do the work on all the projects.
then they wouldn't show up to class or miss class.

then he shouldn't have a problem getting a job and paying it off. when I finished I had about 50k dollars in student loan debt.
it is now down to 35k or so.

I only have that and I have my mortgage on my home. of course I am on the old student loan system and loan interest is cheap.
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

cpwill said:
Declining Welfare has forcing functions on the recipients. The existence of serious welfare cliffs, for example, disincentivizes increasing ones' income.
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that is my problem with the welfare system it actually discourages people from working by completely falling people off a cliff after a certain point.

the system should encourage people to get off the system by a slow phasing of benefits in proportion to their income increase.
going to school or getting a certification in something should be a requirement for continued assistance.

I have no problem with money going to help people improve their lives and make them self sufficient. the problem that I have with welfare that it doesn't do this.
it encourages people to not work at all.
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

imagep said:
Actually most of the people I have hired have little experience in my field. I hire good people at a decent wage and train them, usually going through three or four before I find a "keeper".
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So that's your solution? Just throw 75-80% of workers out into the street? Because they don't help you increase your profits?!?

Let us know when you intend to double what you pay your workers. Because until then, you hate poor people.


Fletch said:
Of course he will. After all, that is only fair. I cant wait to see how he plans to afford to do that, however.
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Nah. This is one of those "OTHER people should pay for this." kind of things, I'm betting.

Gimmesometruth said:
Really? You just admitted it is a distortion of markets, but you still require me to explain how post tax income causes less demand for wage increases?
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Sure. Please demonstrate how receiving food stamps reduces upward wage pressure on low-skill labor employers, especially in an environment such as ours which features a wide supply of those workers.

Really want them to ....what?
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That seems to be the crux of your argument. That taking away food stamps will cause people to want the money more, therefore, employers will give it to them. As opposed the conversation going like this:

Employee Ronald: Hey boss, I know I show up late regular, and don't have any skill sets or anything, but man, I need more money.
Manager McDonanld: Good to hear. How about you start applying yourself so that your labor is worth more, justifying an increase in pay and perhaps even position?
Employee Ronald: Nah, I just want more money.
Manager McDonald: Sorry to say I'm not going to just give you more.
Employee Ronald: Well if you don't, I'll quit!
Manager McDonald: Okedoke. Let me know when your last day is.

.........

Manager McDonald: So, I see you don't have a job currently.
Applicant Donald: That is correct sir, but I would like to have one, so I can start working my way up.
Manager McDonald: Fortunately, we have a brand-new vacancy. You're hired.

.........

Manager McDonald: Sorry all, the vacancy has been filled.
Line of Applicants: [evidence of disappointment].​


I know, because you and your ilk realize it causes less pressure on wage demands.
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No, simply because it is a good thing to do, and a wise thing as well, for all that it can be structured unwisely and badly.
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

ludin said:
that is my problem with the welfare system it actually discourages people from working by completely falling people off a cliff after a certain point.

the system should encourage people to get off the system by a slow phasing of benefits in proportion to their income increase.
going to school or getting a certification in something should be a requirement for continued assistance.

I have no problem with money going to help people improve their lives and make them self sufficient. the problem that I have with welfare that it doesn't do this.
it encourages people to not work at all.
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which is why the majority of people on welfare hold jobs
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

cpwill said:
Declining Welfare has forcing functions on the recipients. The existence of serious welfare cliffs, for example, disincentivizes increasing ones' income.
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Not only are you ignoring the point and the "force" you asked for, that grassroots movements are causing laws to increase min wage, you are attempting to make an argument that less income causes less desire for income. Absurd. Of course, less welfare will surely get those elderly and children out hustling for cash money.
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

Gimmesometruth said:
Not only are you ignoring the point and the "force" you asked for, that grassroots movements are causing laws to increase min wage, you are attempting to make an argument that less income causes less desire for income. Absurd. Of course, less welfare will surely get those elderly and children out hustling for cash money.
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Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

Gimmesometruth said:
Not only are you ignoring the point and the "force" you asked for, that grassroots movements are causing laws to increase min wage,
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Oh, I agree politics can create and push price floors. I just don't see how a social safety net is a subsidy to employers of employees on them, given that it is a subsidy to the employee, and there is no forcing function that would, in the event of a partial loss of social support, force the employer to calculate and then increase wages commensurately. You seem to be arguing that there is one because "everyone knows that".

you are attempting to make an argument that less income causes less desire for income
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Not at all. I am pointing out that you cannot demonstrate your argument. Even if you did, that doesn't make social safety nets a subsidy to employers.

Absurd. Of course, less welfare will surely get those elderly and children out hustling for cash money.
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That's interesting. Change "elderly and children" to "able-bodied low-income", and you've just made a very conservative argument :).
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

cpwill said:
Sure. Please demonstrate how receiving food stamps reduces upward wage pressure on low-skill labor employers, especially in an environment such as ours which features a wide supply of those workers.
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We are back to the same argument as above, if income is reduced there is more pressure for wage increases which can result in grassroots movements to increase min wage if an employer will not voluntarily increase wages, not to mention that finding higher wages for currently working employees is easier than trying to find work when unemployed. Employers during the recovery were very resistant in hiring the unemployed, always preferring currently employed applicants.
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

SlevinKelevra said:
which is why the majority of people on welfare hold jobs
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:doh Whether or not most actually do, this is an idiotic argument.

Oh wow, if you count people who received the Earned Income Tax Credit, most of them have Earned Income?!? You don't say!!! :roll:

EITC generally isn't what is meant by "welfare". Folks are talking about TANF, SNAP, Medicaid, etc. EITC was added into those numbers specifically to get that result.
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

Gimmesometruth said:
We are back to the same argument as above, if income is reduced there is more pressure for wage increases which can result in grassroots movements to increase min wage if an employer will not voluntarily increase wages, not to mention that finding higher wages for currently working employees is easier than trying to find work when unemployed. Employers during the recovery were very resistant in hiring the unemployed, always preferring currently employed applicants.
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:lol: so your argument is that if we get rid of or decrease the social safety net, instead of forming political movements to reinstitute or increase the safety net, activists will form movements to demand increased MW laws, and that therefore the gap between the imaginary MW of a hypothetical future and today's MW is the subsidy?

So. No. There is no forcing function. Merely the potential for an indirect function in a world in which employers do not make cost/benefit assessments. :) Okedoke.



We have a wide pool of low-skill laborers. Supply and Demand are real things, that have real effects on prices. Price floors artificially reduce demand. :shrug: None of these are economically controversial, it seems, until you put them together, at which point you challenge people's desire to have their cake and eat it too as the desert of a Free Lunch. But hey, if this is the best ya'll can come up with, then that's fine, because it means that our point stands. There is no actual subsidy to employers in the social safety net.
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

SlevinKelevra said:
which is why the majority of people on welfare hold jobs
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the jobs that you complain about. they can't make more than so much money or else everything is pulled out from under them.
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

cpwill said:
Oh, I agree politics can create and push price floors. I just don't see how a social safety net is a subsidy to employers of employees on them, given that it is a subsidy to the employee, and there is no forcing function that would, in the event of a partial loss of social support, force the employer to calculate and then increase wages commensurately. You seem to be arguing that there is one because "everyone knows that".
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Let me get this, you asked for a mechanism on how the decline in income could cause employers to increase wages, you agree a grassroots mw movement can cause this, but that doesn't satisfy your forcing.



Not at all.
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Of course you did, I'll repost it:

"The existence of serious welfare cliffs, for example, disincentivizes increasing ones' income."

"Declining welfare cause less desire for income" is a completely indefensible position unless you are going claim everyone who experiences a decline in income becomes so depressed that they give up.



That's interesting. Change "elderly and children" to "able-bodied low-income", and you've just made a very conservative argument :).
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The sarcasm went right by you, and forcing folks off welfare (especially children and the elderly) during a recession/recovery is not only insane, it is heartless. It is more of your soup kitchens cause depressions solutions.
 
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