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Warren Buffett: $15 minimum wage will hurt the working class

Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

What?!? You refuse to hire people without the requisite skills and experience to make them beneficial to your business!?! But, but, but, businesses have to hire such workers! Else, um, well, else, um, well otherwise plans to immanentize the eschaton won't work!!!! :mad:

Actually most of the people I have hired have little experience in my field. I hire good people at a decent wage and train them, usually going through three or four before I find a "keeper".

Those who I find not to be suited to my industry typically will find employment in a field in which they are more suited for.
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

:lol: that's your forcing function? :mrgreen: Demonstrate it. Please show me how either employees stop wanting higher wages when they get aid from a safety net structure
Really? You just admitted it is a distortion of markets, but you still require me to explain how post tax income causes less demand for wage increases? Seriously? It is not within your abilities to work that out....even after admitting to it it being a distortion? FFS.
or employers are forced to take a loss on employees when employees really want them to. :)
Really want them to ....what?



Well, that is true - and is true of any safety net. It keeps less productive citizens from fully suffering the consequences. But I'm willing to put up with that.
I know, because you and your ilk realize it causes less pressure on wage demands.
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

Lets use your business as an example then. Say the minimum is raised to $15. What happens? Obviously, the guy making $14 gets a dollar raise, but what happens to the rest of your employees who I assume are making $15+? Your skilled graphics art professionals aren't going to be to happy about now making as much as a 16 year old, unskilled mcDonalds burger flipper are they?

Well, currently they are making a little less than double MW. Obviously imagep should increase the hourly wage of his workers to ~28 dollars an hour.
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

Well, currently they are making a little less than double MW. Obviously imagep should increase the hourly wage of his workers to ~28 dollars an hour.

Of course he will. After all, that is only fair. I cant wait to see how he plans to afford to do that, however.
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

​How low-wage employers cost taxpayers $153B a year - CBS News

Walmart: America's real 'Welfare Queen'

The Case Against Welfare | The moral case against welfare - tribunedigital-baltimoresun

Economic perspectives against the welfare state - CSMonitor.com

You conservatives are all alike. You want to run up the national debt and increase taxes to create a welfare state.

I'm often accused of being a liberal, yet I don't support any form of means tested welfare. It simply locks people into poverty at the expense of the tax payer, while substantially increasing the profits of low paying employers.

Obviously you either didn't read or understand the economist quoted in the article. They are subsidies to the employee, not the employer. Getting rid of them would not cause an increase in wage. Getting rid of the low wage employers wold cause an increase in the welfare bill.
From the economist:
A final line of argument is that these public assistance programs have become de-facto subsidies for low-wage employers. For a program to be a subsidy for an employer, it needs to lower wages.

Therefore, SNAP is likely to raise, and not lower a worker’s reservation wages—
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

Lets use your business as an example then. Say the minimum is raised to $15. What happens? Obviously, the guy making $14 gets a dollar raise, but what happens to the rest of your employees who I assume are making $15+? Your skilled graphics art professionals aren't going to be to happy about now making as much as a 16 year old, unskilled mcDonalds burger flipper are they?

I don't advocate for raising minimum wage that much overnight. And yes, you have a point that if we did that, there would be serious issues that would have to be worked out between each individual employee and employer.

If I became boss of the US today, what I would do is to raise minimum wage by 10% a year until there is evidence that minimum wage has exceeded the economic maximizing rate, at which time I would index it like social security.

I do believe that our current minimum wage is below what would maximize our economic growth, and there is a substantial body of evidence which leads me to this conclusion. I suspect that the ideal min wage is probably between $10 and $15/hr (probably closer to the $10 figure), but we have no way of knowing unless we experiment.

I'm excited about individual citys countys and states increasing minimum wage because I believe that the evidence gathered from their actions will prove my point - and even if it proves me wrong, then we are still better off because then we know fer sher.
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

That is false. Again, there is no forcing function that would require any of these employers to raise or lower their wages in inverse response to the safety net.

Except - and this is a worthy point - to the degree that the safety net risks outbidding them for low-income labor. If you can make about as much or nothing at all sitting at home on your butt, there are plenty of people who will do that. But if we got rid of food stamps tomorrow, there is nothing that would force McDonalds or Wal Mart to calculate increase their wages to make up the loss to their workforce.
LOL...declining welfare has no forcing method....even though here we are in a thread about a grass roots movement to force employers to increase wages.

Oh my.
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

Obviously you either didn't read or understand the economist quoted in the article. They are subsidies to the employee, not the employer. Getting rid of them would not cause an increase in wage. Getting rid of the low wage employers wold cause an increase in the welfare bill.
From the economist:

Employees often remain with a low wage paying employer only because means tested welfare allows them to have a decent standard of living despite making a low wage.

If we eliminated means tested welfare, then low wage paying employers would have to compete harder for labor, because their employees would be less satisfied with their economic situation. When companies compete harder for labor, labor rates rise. So by welfare subsidizing low income employees, we are effectively allowing low wage employers to pay low wages by not having to compete as hard for labor.

Any time the government subsidizes anything, the market get's distorted, and becomes less than optimal. It doesn't seem that I should have to lecture a conservative about how the capitalistic free market works, but you guys obviously don't understand it.

It amazes me how many so called conservatives would prefer to increase welfare, rather than to increase wages. You guys are really progressive liberals.
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

My lowest paid employee makes $14 to "print t-shirts". Every job in my shop requires a skilled graphics art professional. And no high school kid has the job skills that I require. I guess I could hire a high school kid to clean up or take out the trash, but I only need so much cleaning up and trashing removal. This ain't burger flipping.

You are saying (better than I did) what I was trying to say. What happens to your business when the guy making $14 now needs to make $20 to keep up. Also not sure that a national rate needs to be anything other than a floor. Is the cost of living in SF the same as a small town in Miss. If not why would the minimum wage be the same.

Some cities/states have raised the rate. I think that is the best way to do it. NYC is not the same as upstate NY.

Then again we are still not looking at the root cause of why someone with a family is working for minimum wage. We also are not asking why that person needs to max out at 35-40 hours.
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

I don't advocate for raising minimum wage that much overnight. And yes, you have a point that if we did that, there would be serious issues that would have to be worked out between each individual employee and employer.
That's good to hear, but there are plenty of people who do advocate raising the minimum to $15. Do you think that those who do simply aren't bright enough to understand the actual impact of what they propose? Or do you think they just don't care?

If I became boss of the US today, what I would do is to raise minimum wage by 10% a year until there is evidence that minimum wage has exceeded the economic maximizing rate, at which time I would index it like social security.
I would allow the market to determine what the minimum wage is

I do believe that our current minimum wage is below what would maximize our economic growth, and there is a substantial body of evidence which leads me to this conclusion. I suspect that the ideal min wage is probably between $10 and $15/hr (probably closer to the $10 figure), but we have no way of knowing unless we experiment.

I'm excited about individual citys countys and states increasing minimum wage because I believe that the evidence gathered from their actions will prove my point - and even if it proves me wrong, then we are still better off because then we know fer sher.
My daughter just got her first job at DQ making minimum wage and got a check yesterday for $290. Do you know how much money that is to her? She doesn't need a living wage. She needs work EXPERIENCE. That is what an entry level job provides. Raise the minimum too high and what incentive would DQ have to hire a sixteen year old with no experience, no references and no high school degree? Answer: none. No one benefits when leftists saw off the bottom rungs of the ladder in order to make themselves feel good.
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

Lets use your business as an example then. Say the minimum is raised to $15. What happens? Obviously, the guy making $14 gets a dollar raise, but what happens to the rest of your employees who I assume are making $15+? Your skilled graphics art professionals aren't going to be to happy about now making as much as a 16 year old, unskilled mcDonalds burger flipper are they?

If you feel worse about your job because someone else you deem inferior makes the same amount of money as you, well, that's your problem.
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

If we eliminated means tested welfare, then low wage paying employers would have to compete harder for labor, because their employees would be less satisfied with their economic situation.

Well, let's see what the actual, well respected economist in the MW field (who actually believes MW should be increased) says:

Therefore, SNAP is likely to raise, and not lower a worker’s reservation wages—the fallback position if she loses her job. This will tend to contract labor supply (or improve a worker’s bargaining position), putting an upward pressure on the wage.
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

1. MW is plenty to eat.
Have you seen McDonald's "example budget" for minimum wage workers?

2. No you don't. Witness: high school kids, second income earners, interns.
Which part of full-time was confusing?


:shrug: then supply and demand will drive up what I have to pay to attract full-time labor, now, won't I? :)
Only in the Econ 101 universe of college sophomore libertarians.

That is false. Again, there is no forcing function that would require any of these employers to raise or lower their wages in inverse response to the safety net.


Except - and this is a worthy point - to the degree that the safety net risks outbidding them for low-income labor. If you can make about as much or nothing at all sitting at home on your butt, there are plenty of people who will do that. But if we got rid of food stamps tomorrow, there is nothing that would force McDonalds or Wal Mart to calculate increase their wages to make up the loss to their workforce.

Yes there is. Workers losing the roof over their heads and no longer being employable.
 
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Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

If you feel worse about your job because someone else you deem inferior makes the same amount of money as you, well, that's your problem.

Now that's just stupid. If you are that incapable of understanding what is being discussed go back to watching cartoons and leave discussions like this for grown ups.
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

I think I deserve a monthly Caribbean cruise. Maybe the taxpayer should provide all of my workers income, that way I can have what I deserve (and so can they). I mean why should I, someone who runs a successful business, have to pay those low skilled employees a penny? Isn't that Uncle Sams job?

You could probably do that....if you had people willing to work for a penny. That sounds like a socialist utopia.
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

Now that's just stupid. If you are that incapable of understanding what is being discussed go back to watching cartoons and leave discussions like this for grown ups.

It's literally what you said. The graphics designer "wont be happy" about making the same amount as a burger flipper.

I make what I make. Why do you think I'll be upset if fast food workers make more money than they do now? Does that make me poorer?

Other than some need to feel superior, why would I be unhappy?

McDonald's is a ****ty job. I wouldn't work there for the same money I make flying planes.
 
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Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

Well, let's see what the actual, well respected economist in the MW field (who actually believes MW should be increased) says:

So you are saying that in order to have fewer people in the labor force (lower lfpr) we should provide more welfare? It doesn't seem to me that many conservatives would advocate for that position. They are attacking Obama left and right for the declining lfpr (even though it was declining long before he took office).

Maybe your not really a conservative, maybe you are an independent. Independents are allowed to think for themselves and don't have to subscribe to any standard political rhetoric positions

I'm also thinking that if I agree with what you are saying, I would probably be a big supporter of the "BIG" (Basic Income Guarantee) which has been discussed a lot on DP recently.
 
The left loves to post Warren Buffett and parrot what he says as the way things should be done.
https://fortune.com/2015/05/22/warren-buffett-minimum-wage/

well he just came out and made the same statement that other people have already acknowledged.
a $15 minimum wage will hurt middle income families.

His idea is to expand the EIC.

Buffett makes a very good point. His key line however is this:
In my mind, the country’s economic policies should have two main objectives. First, we should wish, in our rich society, for every person who is willing to work to receive income that will provide him or her a decent lifestyle.

We would all like to see the US educational system be first in the world and set the standard as Buffett has suggested, however it is painfully obvious that this country has no such goal in mind and that "education" is just a buzz word during election time. So, both parties and a host of presidents have failed miserably and the lower end of the talent scale, illegals excepted, are to remain ignorant. Yet, prices continually go up and up because the US's priority is a market economy. So, what are people to do without Buffett's dream? Rack renting and charging what the market will bear is a practice done in our sleep in this country, so people now have to wake up.
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

You could probably do that....if you had people willing to work for a penny. That sounds like a socialist utopia.

If the earned income credit was large enough, and if we eliminated the minimum wage, thats exactly what would happen.

Hell, why not just make the earned income tax credit $100,000 per family and let employers pay their employees a penny an hour? We would have unlimited number of jobs (doing makework) an everyone would get a job (doing makework). I could hire someone to cut my grass every day, heck, twice a day, I hate a messy yard. That would be really productive wouldn't it?

I would be able to pay employees nothing or almost nothing, so that they could have a job and qualify for the earned income credit, which is refundable and essentially what they would "earn" by working for me.

It would be a sweet deal for employers, just pass the cost of labor onto Uncle Sam. But I'm not sure that it would be viable.

When people suggest not increasing minimum wage, or eliminating minimum wage, and also advocate for the earned income tax credit or increasing that form of welfare, then they are essentially advocating for transfering the cost of labor from private employers to the government. I'm not sure that they understand this.
 
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Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

If you feel worse about your job because someone else you deem inferior makes the same amount of money as you, well, that's your problem.

That isnt his problem, that IS a problem. When I started out in law enforcement I made $15 an hour as a part time officer. That is with a bachelor's degree and paying my own way through LE academy.


Now Im supposed to believe that someone flipping burgers making that same wage is A-OK? I was making felony arrests making that money...but thats called paying your damn dues. All those people working warehouse jobs that paid their dues to make $15+ as supervisors paid their dues. Come on bro....cant you admit that labor has a value? If you are working a job that requires no skill then you shouldnt be rewarded for breezing through life. That type of loser mindset makes my blood boil.
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

If the earned income credit was large enough, and if we eliminated the minimum wage, thats exactly what would happen.

Hell, why not just make the earned income tax credit $100,000 per family and let employers pay their employees a penny an hour? We would have unlimited number of jobs (doing makework) an everyone would get a job (doing makework). I could hire someone to cut my grass every day, heck, twice a day, I hate a messy yard. That would be really productive wouldn't it?

I would be able to pay employees nothing or almost nothing, so that they could have a job and qualify for the earned income credit, which is refundable and essentially what they would "earn" by working for me.

It would be a sweet deal for employers, just pass the cost of labor onto Uncle Sam. But I'm not sure that it would be viable.

When people suggest not increasing minimum wage, or eliminating minimum wage, and also advocate for the earned income tax credit or increasing that form of welfare, then they are essentially advocating for transfering the cost of labor from private employers to the government. I'm not sure that they understand this.

Yea but your personal income tax would go through the roof then you would be at square one. Progs like yourself like shoveling money back and forth to pretend like they are doing something useful, when in reality they are just creating parasitic loss. Same thing goes with the car engine....the engine makes X horsepower...then when you introduce the transmission, drive shaft, axle, gears, tires, friction, etc you make a lot less horsepower. Parasitic loss....that is what happens when the government gets involved in ANYTHING. You are paying people to manage your money, so they are going to take some of that money to do the managing, turning your dollar into cents.

But you would probably like that because, as a socialist, and as Ive already said, you believe that all money is the governments money.
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

That isnt his problem, that IS a problem. When I started out in law enforcement I made $15 an hour as a part time officer. That is with a bachelor's degree and paying my own way through LE academy.


Now Im supposed to believe that someone flipping burgers making that same wage is A-OK? I was making felony arrests making that money...but thats called paying your damn dues. All those people working warehouse jobs that paid their dues to make $15+ as supervisors paid their dues. Come on bro....cant you admit that labor has a value? If you are working a job that requires no skill then you shouldnt be rewarded for breezing through life. That type of loser mindset makes my blood boil.
Aside from the benefits not calculated in to your "LE" enforcement employment (private school really paid off!), you are ignoring a basic, fundamental concept called....inflation (again with the thinking thingy!).
 
Am I the only person who sees the irony in conservatives arguing that we should increase welfare rather than to increase income from actually being productive?

Are conservatives the new progressive-liberals?
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

That isnt his problem, that IS a problem. When I started out in law enforcement I made $15 an hour as a part time officer. That is with a bachelor's degree and paying my own way through LE academy.


Now Im supposed to believe that someone flipping burgers making that same wage is A-OK? I was making felony arrests making that money...but thats called paying your damn dues. All those people working warehouse jobs that paid their dues to make $15+ as supervisors paid their dues. Come on bro....cant you admit that labor has a value? If you are working a job that requires no skill then you shouldnt be rewarded for breezing through life. That type of loser mindset makes my blood boil.

It's amazing that libertarians and conservatives will lecture me that I shouldn't care how much money the rich make because it's none of my business, yet libertarians and conservatives are arguing that increasing the pay of low wage workers concerns them.
 
Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

Yea but your personal income tax would go through the roof then you would be at square one. Progs like yourself like shoveling money back and forth to pretend like they are doing something useful, when in reality they are just creating parasitic loss. Same thing goes with the car engine....the engine makes X horsepower...then when you introduce the transmission, drive shaft, axle, gears, tires, friction, etc you make a lot less horsepower. Parasitic loss....that is what happens when the government gets involved in ANYTHING. You are paying people to manage your money, so they are going to take some of that money to do the managing, turning your dollar into cents.

But you would probably like that because, as a socialist, and as Ive already said, you believe that all money is the governments money.
LOL! ..."parasitic loss"....You know, this fits right into that Randian ideology analogy, so I have to ask, exactly how fast can you go with just a motor, ie, no trans, DS, diff, axle, tires.....etc, Speedy? There goes that thinky thingy versus memorizing!
 
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