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Thread: Warren Buffett: $15 minimum wage will hurt the working class

  1. #261
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    Re: Warren Buffett: $15 minimum wage will hurt the working class

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    there is a difference in having a college degree and wanting 15 and hour
    and not having anything and wanting 15 an hour.

    no it won't. if you just have a high school diploma and no job skills sorry I can't hire you.
    people with a college degree usually end up making more than that starting out.

    it actually hurts them because before they might have gotten 15 -20 bucks an hour.

    now if they get 20 bucks an hour that is only 5 bucks more than working minimum wage.
    you have just devalued their education.
    well who would you rather pay those who make less then $15 an hour? A government, that when said and done probably costs the taxpayers more then $15 an hour to provide social serices to those who earn less then a living wage, or to actually require employers to pay a living wage. I find it interesting that those who are against a raise in minimum wage don't realize that people who simply refuse to work for it drain more than $15 an hour on government assistance continue to do so. Ok, so maybe government assistance is less then $15 an hour.. but you do not account for the cost of those who manage such programs, as well as the waste the government spends on maintaining a welfare program for those who refuse to work for minimum wage. If you were to increase the minimum wage to a living wage, you would cut out government intervention in poverty which costs a lot more then private intervention.
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    Re: Warren Buffett: $15 minimum wage will hurt the working class

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    well who would you rather pay those who make less then $15 an hour? A government, that when said and done probably costs the taxpayers more then $15 an hour to provide social serices to those who earn less then a living wage, or to actually require employers to pay a living wage. I find it interesting that those who are against a raise in minimum wage don't realize that people who simply refuse to work for it drain more than $15 an hour on government assistance continue to do so. Ok, so maybe government assistance is less then $15 an hour.. but you do not account for the cost of those who manage such programs, as well as the waste the government spends on maintaining a welfare program for those who refuse to work for minimum wage. If you were to increase the minimum wage to a living wage, you would cut out government intervention in poverty which costs a lot more then private intervention.
    who says I can afford to pay every position 15 an hour? even warren buffett the crown jewel of the left says it is stupid to pay everyone 15 an hour.

    and when the employer goes out of business because they can't pay 15 an hour what then? now those people are making 0 dollars an hour. now instead of the government paying
    some payments they are paying 100%.

    do you guys not think this through?

    we are against artificially raising floors without just cause. it has nothing to do with a living wage that it just an appeal to emotion.
    the fact is that some positions and people are just not worth 15 dollars a hour.

    you only increase government involvement due to the people that are going to be out of work and that will lose their jobs.

  3. #263
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    Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

    I got 9 pages into this debate and I've come away with one sure understanding: We keep having the same tired, arguments and never get any further than:

    * public education has been a complete and utter failure

    * "they" will never amount to anything except be drug dealers, young un-wed mothers, and criminals (And mind you "they" are never clearly defined in the third person, but the conjecture is "they" = minorities = Blacks)

    * high school drop-outs drop out because they're both stupid and lazy

    * poor people should get a higher education to get a better paying job

    * those who are poor are poor on purpose

    Frankly, I think such blanket statements speak to a single-mindedness that there is no shared responsibility in how things got to where they are today. And as such, poor people should do whatever it takes to lift themselves up by their own boot straps. There are very obvious problems with such a hardline position.

    First, it's not just minorities - Blacks or Hispanics - who are poor. There are plenty of poor White people in this country as well. As such, many of them use the public education system which is their only access to a worth-while education. Remove this access, then you're going to have thousands more from the next generation as uneducated. But there's something else to this education dilemma that few dare to acknowledge and it can be seen in terms of black and white.

    For centuries, minorities were disenfranchises where they didn't have opportunities to get a quality education. And when some minorities - Blacks - were finally allowed to go to school, their educational opportunities were stifled if not stymied. If it wasn't for a favorable Supreme Court ruling on Brown -vs- Board of Education, the segregationist attitude of "separate, but equal" would still exist in this country. That said, I would agree somewhat with the notion that "what is given for free is usually squandered". But there's more behind this perception that somehow people who are given things don't appreciate them than most people will admit. And that is there has been a systematic oppressive agenda that has purposely provided advantages to some while purposely leaving others behind.

    White flight. Local city ordinances that changes the rules mid-stream which forces those of little means to "keep up if they are to measure up" with their suburban counter-parts. Unfair bank, mortgage or other lending practices, such as student/ParentPLUS loans to minorities and/or single women. Unequal pay for two or more otherwise equally qualified individuals but one being a minority or a woman and the other typically a White male. Until those of greater means can acknowledge that these things have AND DO happen AND that in many cases they were purposeful, we'll never be able to get past our own biasness.

    I admire and respect Warren Buffett, but I think he's wrong in this case (or at least how he's being interpreted is wrong-headed). I agree that raising the minimum wage to $15/hour for many of the low-skilled service-sector jobs will only hurt the overall economy if such is done at a rapid pace. However, I disagree with the idea that there should be no wage increase. People have to remember that we live in a consumer-based economy. And if money isn't changing hands on a regular basis our economy will eventually suffer either through stagflation or deflation (depending, in part, on economic policies that affect both taxes and interest rates).

    I strongly believe that a good college education specific to the jobs of the future, as well as the needs of today, are very important. But when such an education isn't affordable to the poor whether they be Black or White or Hispanic - people who are already struggling financially - you make a difficult situation that much more difficult even if the potential in future higher wages would in theory make up for the educational investment made in the near-term. One should not have to sacrifice on both ends of the financial spectrum to get ahead, but today those among the poorest who do attempt to gain a higher education are paying for it doubling in the near-term by taking out student loans while also working their way through college only to be on the hook for repaying that loan over the course of the next 25 years. If they're lucky enough to get a good paying job soon after college graduation, then their repayment schedule may be shorter but that isn't the case for many of today's college graduates. In fact, even college graduates from the last decade or so are still struggling to make their repayments. However, those who manage to make progress and stay on their repayment schedules have had the benefit of time on the job (though no more than their own efforts, mind you) and salary increases to help them get through it.
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 05-24-15 at 05:55 PM.
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    Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

    Getting back to Buffett's comments for a moment, just as businesses large and small don't plan their productivity, marketing and sales efforts around the taxes they pay, neither do working-class households based their budgets or living standards around the Earned Income Tax Credit. We're talking day-to-day/paycheck-to-paycheck/week-to-week/biweekly payday-to-biweekly payday versus a once a year payout (or once a month as he proposes). I'm quite confident in saying that people don't sit around waiting for that annual tax refund before deciding how they're going to have their living needs met. Life just doesn't work that way, folks. That said, I understand what Buffett was trying to get at. Quite simply:

    If we're not going to raise the minimum wage, then at least provide a better tax reward for the working poor so that they'll have some form of financial gain where they can invest in their own future.
    Because today, fewer and fewer working-class households are earning enough money to conduct similar investments in education, retirement or improving their quality of life even when they do "work hard" and perform meaningful work. Unions have been demonized to the point where few exist today that give voice to the needs of the working-class to keep pace with changes in economic trends. While not a big fan of unions myself, I do understand that they did (and do) serve a purpose where fairness and equality in the workforce is concerned. I understand the concept behind pulling one's self up by his own boot straps, but that concept only works when the common working man has opportunities to invest in having a share of greater success, in obtaining the American Dream - whatever that means to him. Fewer and fewer people are having such opportunities today and that's due in large part because incomes haven't kept pace with the overall cost working-class families were able to make decades ago to invest in their own futures.

    * 401k plans have been siphoned off by employers who were suppose to properly manage those funds for their employees as much as themselves. Instead, market risks were taken - sometimes recklessly and working men paid for it.

    * Social Security has been raided for so long it's highly doubtful that which the working man has paid into over the course of his working life -- 20-30 years -- won't be their throughout his golden years and even if it is, the payout likely won't keep up with inflation.

    And these are just two examples of how direct investments made by the working man have been eroded. Add to that salaries having remained flat for nearly four decades (statistically), and it's no wonder working-class households can't afford to pay for a college education for their child(dren)...or themselves to get retrained to obtain that better paying job so that they can do better for themselves and their family.

    I wonder, how many of you watched the President's conversation on poverty from about a week ago held at Georgetown University? While I took issue with some of President Obama's cynical comments and his purposeful skirting of "truthiness" on one or two issues, I thought the panel hit the mark on so many levels when they addressed not only how so many Americans have fallen into poverty over the years, but why the investments in "people" are no longer their (due in large part to a lack of connectivity one to another) and solutions to resolve the problem. If you haven't watched the video, I'd encourage you to do so, but in so doing please take off the partisan blinders and just listen with an open mind to what's being said.
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 05-24-15 at 06:01 PM.
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    Re: Warren Buffett: $15 minimum wage will hurt the working class

    We can get past this, but the ideological bickering and cynical attitudes must change before any real progress on combating poverty can take place. It's starts with accepting some real truths about how people fall into poverty, as well as why so many seem to be trapped their and not necessarily of their own doing. While I do understand that their are some people who just don't want to work to improve their living standards just as their will be people who will squander an opportunity to succeed even when such an opportunity is dropped right in their lap, I also understand that their has long been a system in place - a mechanism - that systematically creates this revolving door, this merry-go-round of poverty that for some becomes more and more difficult to get out of with each passing generation. Welfare-to-work programs, for example, would prove more effective if job/skills training were tethered to the benefits. Our public education system use to foster creative programs and provide advanced learning opportunities for all, but somehow participating in extra curricular activities for all became this quasi cash cow for public schools where only a select few get to participate. It's beyond survival of the fittest. It's whoever pays the least gets the least. And in public education that tends to leave even more of the poor on the outside looking in even in an educational environment that's suppose to be a benefit and a gateway to upward mobility for all.

    Self to a large degree has to die out. Our nation can't survive if there's this unwillingness to help our own in truly meaningful ways.
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 05-24-15 at 06:05 PM.
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    Re: Warren Buffett: $15 minimum wage will hurt the working class

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    who says I can afford to pay every position 15 an hour? even warren buffett the crown jewel of the left says it is stupid to pay everyone 15 an hour.

    and when the employer goes out of business because they can't pay 15 an hour what then? now those people are making 0 dollars an hour. now instead of the government paying
    some payments they are paying 100%.

    do you guys not think this through?

    we are against artificially raising floors without just cause. it has nothing to do with a living wage that it just an appeal to emotion.
    the fact is that some positions and people are just not worth 15 dollars a hour.

    you only increase government involvement due to the people that are going to be out of work and that will lose their jobs.
    I hear you, but your attitude suggests that increasing the minimum wage is a zero-sum game. It isn't. The rich don't lose if they pay the working man a modest increase in salary that mets living standards for the employee AND allows him to make investments in himself. All this talk about "taking from the rich" in terms of income redistribution actually throws me aback because if one is to accept your argument which holds true for the bulk of the Conservative mindset, corporate employers doesn't want to give up on anything if it helps "the least of these" move up in the world. For example, there are tax credits on tax payments the employer has already paid but refuse to give up all because the argument has framed the elimination of such credits as "a tax increase" instead of simply closing a generous tax loophole that's been given. Same holds true for something as controversial as health care coverage. Employers don't want to cover their employees but they neither want to lose the tax advantage that paying their portion of health insurance premiums afford them. The irony here is if employers paid employees a decent enough salary so they can pay for their health insurance themselves even through the health insurance marketplace, it would still be a financial benefit to the employers in terms of fewer lost working hours due to having a healthier work force.

    Changing perspective is difficult, but people need to see how the system of things the way it is now is hurting opportunities for upward mobility more than it's helping.
    "A fair exchange ain't no robbery." Tupac Shakur w/Digital Underground

  7. #267
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    Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    ...

    * public education has been a complete and utter failure

    * "they" will never amount to anything except be drug dealers, young un-wed mothers, and criminals (And mind you "they" are never clearly defined in the third person, but the conjecture is "they" = minorities = Blacks)

    * high school drop-outs drop out because they're both stupid and lazy

    * poor people should get a higher education to get a better paying job

    * those who are poor are poor on purpose
    the ironic thing is that most of the people who say those things, are the same ones who tend to be anti-education.
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    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

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    Re: Warren Buffett: $15 minimum wage will hurt the working class

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    I hear you, but your attitude suggests that increasing the minimum wage is a zero-sum game. ...
    Again, it's pretty much the same group of people who claim that the rich getting richer doesn't harm the non-rich, who will claim that the poor not being as poor somehow harms the non-poor.

    It's just a particular mindset, its not logical thinking, it's totally irrational and based upon emotions.
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

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    Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by WSUwarrior View Post
    Its not their fault...its the governments fault for not giving them better choices...or just getting the hell out of the way. Most societal problems can be traced back to the federal government...a federal government that you support the expansion of.
    Da ebil gubamint argument huh?

    You need to critically think harder.
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  10. #270
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    Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

    What you cut out when raising minimum wage, is government intervention in peoples lives. As we have seen over the last 50 plus years, the handling of the poor by the government has been disasterous. We have a society that is rife with violence. Much of the violence comes from those who live in poverty, and live off the government. You want to lower crime, raise minimum wage.
    - There was never a good war, or a bad peace.
    - Idealistically, everything should work as you planed it to. Realistically, it depends on how idealistic you are as to the measure of success.
    - Better to be a pessimist before, and an optimist afterwords.

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