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Thread: FBI admits no major cases cracked with Patriot Act snooping powers

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    Re: FBI admits no major cases cracked with Patriot Act snooping powers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Fabulous View Post
    I will only speak for myself here when I say that what is in bold is NOT the reason I think The Patriot Act should be abolished. It should be abolished because it is an infringement of liberty, it has and will continue to be abused, and it gave rise to the practice of data mining.

    The very concept of data mining is evil.
    I'm not sure that "evil" is the right word to describe data mining, but certainly "unconstitutional" would apply, given the words of the Fourth Amendment.

    Any legislation that does not comply with the US Constitution is null and void, and no citizen has an obligation to obey it.

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    Re: FBI admits no major cases cracked with Patriot Act snooping powers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Fabulous View Post
    I will only speak for myself here when I say that what is in bold is NOT the reason I think The Patriot Act should be abolished. It should be abolished because it is an infringement of liberty, it has and will continue to be abused, and it gave rise to the practice of data mining.

    The very concept of data mining is evil.
    You speak for more than yourself. but I think CJ's going to make the liberty for security argument, but I know your not buying it!
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: FBI admits no major cases cracked with Patriot Act snooping powers

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMOSS View Post
    It is an intrusion on privacy, and does need to expire. However, data mining happens all the time around you. For example, my mother was telling me when she went to the grocery story, and got her groceries, the coupons that spat out automatically were all the things that she normally buys, down to the exact brands. That's data mining right there. If you have a cell phone, the phone companies knows what your location was for the last year. If you browse the internet, you will get targeted add. That's data mining.

    Or, is it you object to 'the government using data mining' , rather than coporations?
    One can avoid corporate data mining by opting out. That is why corporations often provide incentives, such as discounts, to encourage it. The laws in many states and some federal laws also require that businesses provide disclosures on how they use customer information and provide their customers with a method for opting out. Also, corporations risk losing customers and ruining their reputation when they abuse their customer data.

    Our government does not provide disclosure or opt out options and has a well documented record of using personal information to discredit and disrupt people and organizations for political reasons, ie. Cointelpro Other governments are even worse and we seem to be headed in the wrong direction.

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    Re: FBI admits no major cases cracked with Patriot Act snooping powers

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMOSS View Post
    It is an intrusion on privacy, and does need to expire. However, data mining happens all the time around you. For example, my mother was telling me when she went to the grocery story, and got her groceries, the coupons that spat out automatically were all the things that she normally buys, down to the exact brands. That's data mining right there. If you have a cell phone, the phone companies knows what your location was for the last year. If you browse the internet, you will get targeted add. That's data mining.

    Or, is it you object to 'the government using data mining' , rather than coporations?
    If you don't think meta-data or data mining involves an invasion of privacy, you are invited to prove the point by posting a copy of your phone bill on this forum.

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    Re: FBI admits no major cases cracked with Patriot Act snooping powers

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    If the government is following legislation that hasn't as yet been ruled unconstitutional, how is it "overstepping its authority"? If you believe the government is "overstepping its authority", what makes you think it will stop doing it if the Patriot Act is repealed or isn't renewed?
    Politicians routinely pass unconstitutional laws despite knowing that it is unconstitutional. Legislative bodies have staff attorneys that can and should advise them when a law is clearly unconstitutional. In my opinion elected officials should be charged with a crime when they do that because it requires a huge expenditure by civil liberties advocates and the government and years of process to get a Supreme Court ruling.

    Without authorization for invading our privacy at least the government can not use the information to convict someone in court. (for those who get a real trial)

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    Re: FBI admits no major cases cracked with Patriot Act snooping powers

    Quote Originally Posted by fmw View Post
    But you know it isn't about you, don't you?
    Well, it's about 10's or 100's of millions like me.
    A Canadian conservative is one who believes in limited government and that the government should stay out of our wallets and out of our bedrooms.

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    Re: FBI admits no major cases cracked with Patriot Act snooping powers

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Politicians routinely pass unconstitutional laws despite knowing that it is unconstitutional. Legislative bodies have staff attorneys that can and should advise them when a law is clearly unconstitutional. In my opinion elected officials should be charged with a crime when they do that because it requires a huge expenditure by civil liberties advocates and the government and years of process to get a Supreme Court ruling.

    Without authorization for invading our privacy at least the government can not use the information to convict someone in court. (for those who get a real trial)
    If I'm not mistaken, the Patriot Act, in its current form, has survived several constitutional challenges to and through the Supreme Court.

    It is simply awaiting renewal or permanency since it was "extended" for the past 4 years - considering the current climate, it's likely to simply be kicked down the road again for a few years.

    The PATRIOT Act and the Constitution: Five Key Points
    A Canadian conservative is one who believes in limited government and that the government should stay out of our wallets and out of our bedrooms.

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    Re: FBI admits no major cases cracked with Patriot Act snooping powers

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMOSS View Post
    but the intrusion on your personal business is not there. It just COULD be there with this data, and that is concerning enough.
    I mostly agree. but personally, when it comes to government staying within its Constitutional authority, I make no distinction between the potential for abuse and actual abuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    If I'm not mistaken, the Patriot Act, in its current form, has survived several constitutional challenges to and through the Supreme Court.
    I bet the rulings were 5/4, right along party lines. Actions taken under the same Patriot Act have been ruled unconstitutional.

    United States v. Jones (2012) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    Re: FBI admits no major cases cracked with Patriot Act snooping powers

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    One can avoid corporate data mining by opting out. That is why corporations often provide incentives, such as discounts, to encourage it. The laws in many states and some federal laws also require that businesses provide disclosures on how they use customer information and provide their customers with a method for opting out. Also, corporations risk losing customers and ruining their reputation when they abuse their customer data.

    Our government does not provide disclosure or opt out options and has a well documented record of using personal information to discredit and disrupt people and organizations for political reasons, ie. Cointelpro Other governments are even worse and we seem to be headed in the wrong direction.

    Well, you can opt out of their selling it.. but they still have it. And honestly, haven't you seen that merely going to a web site allows people to target you with specific advertisement, which you didn't opt in for?
    Knee-jerk anti-government sentiment is not a viable political philosophy.

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    Re: FBI admits no major cases cracked with Patriot Act snooping powers

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Well, it's about 10's or 100's of millions like me.
    There you go. The confusion is not whether the patriot act is constitutional. It is whether the mass collection of telephone meta data is constitutional. Congress is trying to clarify the patriot act to close down the mass collection. It is important to note that not a single arrest or conviction has occurred as a result of the mass collection. It doesn't even work. Personally I hate everything about the patriot act. I'm for government having to go to a judge for a warrant just like any police department has to do.

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