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Thread: Russia is making moves in Iraq

  1. #31
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    Re: Russia is making moves in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicci View Post
    Attempting to fix the problem isn't the same as actually fixing the problem.

    This whole area was majority destabilized after WWII and every since then we've been trying to stabilize it, but we should have stopped decades ago.
    If you call creating power vacuums across the region stabilizing, sure thing.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Russia is making moves in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by soot View Post
    I think it's kind of naive to think that Iraq isn't going to be somebody's proxy.

    They're broken, they're weak, they have no idea how to govern themselves, they're located in a strategically significant location geographically, and they're sitting on top of a ton of wealth.

    In a perfect utopian world nobody would take advantage of that unfortunate confluence of circumstances, but in the real world somebody is going to take them for all they're worth.

    Why would it be the United States?

    Because we've already sunk a lot into the project and people with power who make decisions that change the world generally frown upon 0% ROI.

    But if it isn't us it surely will be somebody else.

    Which brings me to this:



    I don't necessarily disagree with this position.

    If it were up to me we'd cut regulations, punch holes all over this country and in the Gulf, suck it dry of oil while we allowed industry to develop next generations energy technologies (which is going on to some degree, but we're still a LOOOOOONG way off from being totally fossil fuel independent), and be done with the Middle East except for punitive responses to their nonsense when necessary.

    But I don't make the decisions around here.
    That cliche is what's broken. It doesn't require a perfect utopian world. It requires acknowledging the obvious. Nobody would be fighting over those sand dunes today were it not for what lies beneath.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Russia is making moves in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    If you call creating power vacuums across the region stabilizing, sure thing.
    The power vacuum was during an attempt to fix the problem of wrong power in wrong hands to begin with. We let the British decide who should own what after the war and we are still paying for that mistake. They thought they could "lord" over the countries like they used to do in the 1500s~
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    Re: Russia is making moves in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicci View Post
    The power vacuum was during an attempt to fix the problem of wrong power in wrong hands to begin with. We let the British decide who should own what after the war and we are still paying for that mistake. They thought they could "lord" over the countries like they used to do in the 1500s~
    The Middle East is not for the British nor the US to decide. It's odd that you think either has an interest in anything other than control. You may have the last word, I have no further interest in the subject.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Russia is making moves in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    That cliche is what's broken. It doesn't require a perfect utopian world. It requires acknowledging the obvious. Nobody would be fighting over those sand dunes today were it not for what lies beneath.
    I don't think that's true at all.

    The fight today is between a weakened sovereign state and a fundamentalist Salafi militant organization attempting to establish an imperial Caliphate in order to restore, what they see as, legitimacy to Islam.

    I mean, yeah, if we want to keep digging back we can blame the the Sassanids, the Abbasids, the Mongol, the Ottoman Turks, the Mamluks, and eventually we get to the British, Ba'athists, and finally the American where we can talk about oil.

    But that place has been fought over since the Assyrian Empire fell in to decline in ~600BCE and the Medes, Persians, Scythians, Cimmerians, Babylonians, Chaldeans, Scythians and Cimmerians rose up in open revolt.

    For the record, oil was discovered in Iraq in 1927, so we're talking about roughly 3000 years of more-or-less continuous warfare before "what lies beneath the dunes" was even a consideration.

    If you think people are going to stop fighting just because a couple major powers "acknowledge" something, if they stand up and say, "Heck, we admit it, we want that oil", I don't know dude, I don't think you could kid yourself any harder.

    Acknowledgement or no acknowledgement the major powers which need oil to fuel their economies are going to take advantage of weaker, oil rich nations. Either outright or through proxy wars.

    To think that's not going to happen is the idealist, utopian nonsense I was talking about.
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    Re: Russia is making moves in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by RDS View Post
    Embarrassing situation for the US.



    Russia is making moves in Iraq - Business Insider
    Uhhhh why?... A new Arms deal is embarrassing for the US? Russia and Iraq have had close relations and cooperation during Saddam's regime, and even continuing through the intern governmnets, and even today.

    http://armstrade.sipri.org/armstrade...ort_values.php

    And 4.2 billion? Thats nothing compared to the 5 billion deal back in 2013 What is behind Iraq's arms deal with Russia? - Al Jazeera English

    Oh and why are they doing this? Because Iraq and Russia share the same view when it comes to Syria, they want a political solution and do not want regime change in Syria.
    Just a democratic-socialist in the heartland of America.CHECK OUT MY TUMBLR(BLOG)HERE "Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression, and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

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    Re: Russia is making moves in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by soot View Post
    I don't think that's true at all.

    The fight today is between a weakened sovereign state and a fundamentalist Salafi militant organization attempting to establish an imperial Caliphate in order to restore, what they see as, legitimacy to Islam.

    I mean, yeah, if we want to keep digging back we can blame the the Sassanids, the Abbasids, the Mongol, the Ottoman Turks, the Mamluks, and eventually we get to the British, Ba'athists, and finally the American where we can talk about oil.

    But that place has been fought over since the Assyrian Empire fell in to decline in ~600BCE and the Medes, Persians, Scythians, Cimmerians, Babylonians, Chaldeans, Scythians and Cimmerians rose up in open revolt.

    For the record, oil was discovered in Iraq in 1927, so we're talking about roughly 3000 years of more-or-less continuous warfare before "what lies beneath the dunes" was even a consideration.

    If you think people are going to stop fighting just because a couple major powers "acknowledge" something, if they stand up and say, "Heck, we admit it, we want that oil", I don't know dude, I don't think you could kid yourself any harder.

    Acknowledgement or no acknowledgement the major powers which need oil to fuel their economies are going to take advantage of weaker, oil rich nations. Either outright or through proxy wars.

    To think that's not going to happen is the idealist, utopian nonsense I was talking about.
    Can we agree that the Middle East is where empires go to die?
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Russia is making moves in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by RDS View Post
    Embarrassing situation for the US.



    Russia is making moves in Iraq - Business Insider
    They are just trying to make some money selling arms. Can't really blame them for that.

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    Re: Russia is making moves in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by LeoVlaming View Post
    They are just trying to make some money selling arms. Can't really blame them for that.
    In the midst of a war and coalition air strikes with a major city just taken by ISIS the Iraqi PM flies to Russia to meet Putin? This is some desperate move.

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    Re: Russia is making moves in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by soot View Post
    I think it's kind of naive to think that Iraq isn't going to be somebody's proxy.

    They're broken, they're weak, they have no idea how to govern themselves, they're located in a strategically significant location geographically, and they're sitting on top of a ton of wealth.

    In a perfect utopian world nobody would take advantage of that unfortunate confluence of circumstances, but in the real world somebody is going to take them for all they're worth.

    Why would it be the United States?

    Because we've already sunk a lot into the project and people with power who make decisions that change the world generally frown upon 0% ROI.

    But if it isn't us it surely will be somebody else.

    Which brings me to this:



    I don't necessarily disagree with this position.

    If it were up to me we'd cut regulations, punch holes all over this country and in the Gulf, suck it dry of oil while we allowed industry to develop next generations energy technologies (which is going on to some degree, but we're still a LOOOOOONG way off from being totally fossil fuel independent), and be done with the Middle East except for punitive responses to their nonsense when necessary.

    But I don't make the decisions around here.
    What proxy war? No world power wants to see ISIS take over iraq. A proxy war would imply some power is siding with ISIS. Sure, russian involvement could lead to fighting over the loot like oil, but this is only supplying weapons. That's not guaranteed to work either, given the tendency of iraqi forces to run away from battle. So far as this conflict goes, neither americans nor russians are willing to really commit, so it's a long ways off from battling each other there.

    As to your favored goal, i think this is fantasy even if such blatant theft went of a sovereign country's resources took place. The oil producers and distributors within the US have full incentive to prevent alternative fuel from becoming mainstream. We could easily have developed such technology by now, and other countries are doing so, but how exactly will you force all new cars to run on this new fuel for instance? How will you force gas stations to convert to it? All your pillaging would likely accomplish is to give some oil tycoons a fatter dividends check, and very slightly lower gas cost here

    We can't "be done" with the ME either in that scenario, since "sucking it dry" would require a continuous presence, and other nations would also take this as permission to fight over the same resources. Then you have your proxy war

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