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Thread: Los Angeles Raises Minimum Wage to $15 an Hour

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    Re: Los Angeles Raises Minimum Wage to $15 an Hour

    Quote Originally Posted by SlevinKelevra View Post
    You can intentionally misrepresent my point all you want, but you just destroyed your own argument.

    You said an option is to let some of them go. Pick one, two, three.... Now maintain the same # (variety) of services you offered before.
    It is an option for some. Case in point the Chevy dealership I used to work for had a new consultant come in and fired all the hourly paid workers in the shop. That eliminated the tire guys and the sweepers. Problem there is that the commissioned service techs were responsible for cleaning their work areas, which cut down on overall productivity and pissed off the techs who were then cleaning floors instead of turning profitable hours. There is no labor op for mopping a floor. My shop is smaller. One guy is paid hourly, the office help is paid hourly, one guy is straight commission. I get that you want to be right here, but no amount of squirming is going to make it so.

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    Re: Los Angeles Raises Minimum Wage to $15 an Hour

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    Well, shouldn't be surprising that the ubber Liberal/Progressive Secretary of Labor, Thomas Perez, would put his stamp of approval on such propaganda. Spend enough time reviewing their messaging campaign, and it's quite obvious the methodology is the same, no matter where it's presented.

    Headlines, and claims, with very little meat. Exactly what the target audience has been trained to swallow.

    "If 600 economists, seven of them Nobel Prize winners in economics, have said no problemo to increases in minimum wage, deeeang it all, must be A-OK. Count me in".

    Except, most economists have put a cap on those increases where big negatives kick in. Any discussion in Perez marketing piece about his good friends in the labor Unions pushing for $15/hr? Hmmm. Nothing. Just a big goober laden kiss on how awesome an increase in the minimum wage would be, and how any concerns are just myths.
    First, MTAtech (a self-described liberal), provided a prior link for his "evidence" that said as much, the article quoted even MW supporter economists such as Reich (or Potter) said that at 15 dollars an hour, the assurances of "no worries" no longer longer apply. In other words, the 'libs' on this issue are even ignoring the experts on their own side.

    Second, 600 economists on a letter for a modest increase (most of them not labor economists) is a pretty small sample - there are at least 15,000 (or more) US economists. However, depending on which poll you use, it should be mentioned that somewhere between a third to one half of economists support some kind of minimum wage, although fewer than the US population. But even they don't do so because they use 'economic reasoning' or are even familiar with labor market modeling (as my friend, a full-time non-labor economist, reminds me).

    Third, letters like this represent political (not economic) choices - they reflect the political "feelings" and gut moralisms. The typical "justifications" of minimum wage by supporting economists are as banal and subjectively driven as that as that of a brick layer or truck driver (probably more so).

    In Marginal Revolution there was a short article that underscored that reality. It described Dan Klein's survey work is the sociology of the economics profession which noted how little actual economic reasoning informs the MW opinions of those economists who favor minimum wages. Reading the simplistic and clichéd justifications of these Ph.D.'s made me cringe, as if after interviewing a representative sample of MD's, one discovers that in spite of their training, it believe that we ought to listen to Christian Scientists and ignore medical care.

    Their non-economic 'reasoning' stand out as exceedingly cliched batch of political moralisms ...among them:

    "regardless of its (bad) effect on efficiency, minimum wage is necessary to support the 'mores' of our society, just like our 'mores' don't permit child labor"
    "it provides greater equality of income and respect, which is associated with better democracy - this is a near consensus in our society"
    "it reduces poverty and inequality" (by the way, it does not).
    "its just fair and society has the power to determine outcomes to make it fair"
    "it provides economic justice"
    "people should have pride, they should not feel like losers"
    "without it our sense of community is undermined, which undermines social norms and the social behavior of those on the bottom".
    "reducing wage inequality increases the quality of democratic institutions".
    "less likely to become dependent on public programs, more incentive for work, more at stake in the system".

    What struck me as interesting is that in spite of a graduate education is economics they don't "think" about political theory, philosophy, or normative/moral questions above the level of the usual 'liberal' clique.

    The just "feel" what is right.

    Sad...very sad.
    Last edited by maxparrish; 05-22-15 at 11:23 AM.

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    Re: Los Angeles Raises Minimum Wage to $15 an Hour

    Quote Originally Posted by tech30528 View Post
    Yeah, except I don't produce "units", I fix cars, and not all mechanics or technicians are created equal. I have a guy who makes $12 who is great for brakes, suspension work and simple maintenance, and I have a top guy who can diagnose complex issues who makes twice that. I have someone who works in the office who also makes $12 an hour, her production is more difficult to calculate since she doesn't actually produce labor hours but is necessary to make the rest of our operations more efficient. This isn't theoretical, it is reality.
    Nein. You vill produce zee units. Seriously, all BMW bumpers are equal, so there's little doubt that the German fellow in a fully automated production plant can vastly out produce the third world sweat shop, and therefore can command a much higher wage based on "units". As you point out, however, we don't all work producing something where quality is the minimum acceptable.
    "I believe that man will not merely endure: he will prevail. He is immortal, not because he alone among creatures has an inexhaustible voice, but because he has a soul, a spirit capable of compassion and sacrifice and endurance." William Faulkner

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    Re: Los Angeles Raises Minimum Wage to $15 an Hour

    Quote Originally Posted by maxparrish View Post
    First, MTAtech (a self-described liberal), provided a prior link for his "evidence" that said as much, the article quoted even MW supporter economists such as Reich (or Potter) said that at 15 dollars an hour, the assurances of "no worries" no longer longer apply. In other words, the 'libs' on this issue are even ignoring the experts on their own side.

    Second, 600 economists on a letter (most of them not labor economists) is a pretty small sample - there are at least 15,000 (or more) US economists. However, depending on which poll you use, it should be mentioned that somewhere between a third to one half support some kind of minimum wage. But even they don't do so because they use 'economic reasoning' or are even familiar with labor market modeling (as my friend, a full-time economist, reminds me).

    Third, letters like this represent political (not economic) choices - they reflect the political "feelings" and gut moralisms. They typical "justifications" of minimum wage by such supporters are as banal and subjectively driven as that as that of a brick layer or truck driver (probably more so).

    In Marginal Revolution there was a short article that underscored that reality. It described Dan Kein's work on the sociology of the economics profession, noting just how little economic reasoning actually informs the opinions of those economists of stature who favor minimum wages. Reading the simplistic and clichéd justifications of these Ph.D.'s made one cringe, as if he/she had interviewed a representative sample of MD's and then discovered in spite of their training, it did not change their belief that we ought to ignore medical care.

    Their non-economic 'reasons' stand out as exceedingly cliched political moralisms ...among them:

    "regardless of its (bad) effect on efficiency, minimum wage is necessary to support the 'mores' of our society, just like our 'mores' don't permit child labor"
    "it provides greater equality of income and respect, which is associated with better democracy - this is a near consensus in our society"
    "it reduces poverty and inequality" (by the way, it does not).
    "its just fair and society has the power to determine outcomes to make it fair"
    "it provides economic justice"
    "people should have pride, they should not feel like losers"
    "without it our sense of community is undermined, which undermines social norms and the social behavior of those on the bottom".
    "reducing wage inequality increases the quality of democratic institutions".
    "less likely to become dependent on public programs, more incentive for work, more at stake in the system".

    What struck me as interesting is that in spite of a graduate education is a social science, and of accomplishment and stature in their field, those interviewed don't seem especially knowledgeable or skilled in analyzing normative questions - they don't "think" about political theory, philosophy, or normative/moral questions above the level of the usual 'liberal' clique.

    The just "feel" what is right.

    Sad...very sad.
    Well stated. And yes, sad indeed.

    As you have so well summarized, the approach this Administration, and it's supporters and followers take, is adversarial. Instead of creating a unified strategy that is inclusive and well thought out, it is a manipulative effort full of clichés and claims, with "enemies" to be vanquished, and victors to share in the spoils.

    And left in the dust in this case, are the very people who risk everything to employ the majority of the working people in this country.

    As you so well concluded, the foundation is not based in a solid understanding, but in what "feels" right - A well identified "emotional" response to issues and challenges the left is hard pressed to deny.
    President Donald J Trump, 45th President of the United States of America. A victory born in the hearts and minds of Everyday Americans

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    Re: Los Angeles Raises Minimum Wage to $15 an Hour

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    Well stated. And yes, sad indeed.

    As you have so well summarized, the approach this Administration, and it's supporters and followers take, is adversarial. Instead of creating a unified strategy that is inclusive and well thought out, it is a manipulative effort full of clichés and claims, with "enemies" to be vanquished, and victors to share in the spoils.

    And left in the dust in this case, are the very people who risk everything to employ the majority of the working people in this country.

    As you so well concluded, the foundation is not based in a solid understanding, but in what "feels" right - A well identified "emotional" response to issues and challenges the left is hard pressed to deny.
    you want higher wages create demand for more skilled workers. that means though that you have to get demand going.
    by creating pro-business rules and regulations.

    that is where this administration and people like it fail. it is the same reason that businesses are holding onto 1.5+ trillion dollars and not spending it.

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    Re: Los Angeles Raises Minimum Wage to $15 an Hour

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    you want higher wages create demand for more skilled workers. that means though that you have to get demand going.
    by creating pro-business rules and regulations.

    that is where this administration and people like it fail. it is the same reason that businesses are holding onto 1.5+ trillion dollars and not spending it.
    It would seem a Social Justice agenda will never see suppliers of labor as a partner, but always as the enemy. When attempting to control the masses, it's important to establish victimhood status, so the knights in shinning armor will never be threatened, and their promises will never be questioned.
    President Donald J Trump, 45th President of the United States of America. A victory born in the hearts and minds of Everyday Americans

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    Re: Los Angeles Raises Minimum Wage to $15 an Hour

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    It would seem a Social Justice agenda will never see suppliers of labor as a partner, but always as the enemy. When attempting to control the masses, it's important to establish victimhood status, so the knights in shinning armor will never be threatened, and their promises will never be questioned.
    AFter looking at their LM-2, I think the SEIU can afford to buy a few of these franchises and show us all how it's done. They will never, ever do that because their objective isn't increasing worker's wages or social justice - it's political power. Otherwise, they'd put their money where their mouth is.
    "I believe that man will not merely endure: he will prevail. He is immortal, not because he alone among creatures has an inexhaustible voice, but because he has a soul, a spirit capable of compassion and sacrifice and endurance." William Faulkner

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    Re: Los Angeles Raises Minimum Wage to $15 an Hour

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post


    Cling to that.
    I will, you have... $40-50 a square foot for retail space in San Francisco. If you cant hack it's your own fault. Remember - location- location - location. If you're not making enough you're in the wrong neighborhood: move to The Haight.
    You can dance without a lawyer

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    Re: Los Angeles Raises Minimum Wage to $15 an Hour

    Quote Originally Posted by SlevinKelevra View Post
    what if there is no demand for cupcakes in NV ?
    Have you seen the people walking around in Nevada? There're plenty of cupcake customers there.

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    Re: Los Angeles Raises Minimum Wage to $15 an Hour

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    businesses are leaving or closing down. that is why CA has some of the highest poverty rates in the country and more people on government assistance.
    it has been going on for years.

    yep if I owned a cupcake shop in CA I would shut it down and move to NV where I can operate efficiently.
    it isn't a matter of selling cupcakes.

    it is the matter of making enough money off of them to continue operating.
    I mean if you will buy 10 dollar cupcakes then please do I will stay in business.
    As I said earlier, for every one that leaves, ten more are ready to start. If you can't afford to do business in a given market, then go to one that you can do business in.
    You can dance without a lawyer

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