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Thread: White House Promises to Bomb Ramadi Until City Retaken From ISIS

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    Re: White House Promises to Bomb Ramadi Until City Retaken From ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    You are right, somehow I had conflated the costs per year with the costs per month. The direct costs per year of our being in Iraq was around 100 billion a year or so.
    Can you think of any way in which these costs may have been recovered?

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    Re: White House Promises to Bomb Ramadi Until City Retaken From ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Because he sees us as the world's police. I don't. Which puts conservative hawks in such a mental quagmire in that they want what Obama's doing but can't actually allow themselves to agree with Obama on anything at the same time.
    This has nothing to do with being "The World's Police". The American people committed themselves to a war, lost many good people, spent billions of dollars, eliminated an insanely murderous dictator, introduced democracy to the country for the first time in its history and then made an ignoble retreat by throwing it all away.

    That has absolutely nothing to do with being the "World's Police", something Congress never approved anyway.

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    Re: White House Promises to Bomb Ramadi Until City Retaken From ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Is it your understanding that the military advised that 150,000 troops remain in Iraq? Also, is it your understanding that other international forces wouldn't be involved in maintaining order there? You must have heard about US Troops being involved in maintaining peace in Europe, South Korea, and elsewhere, and with great success.
    How many Islamic Extremists are there in Germany, South Korea or Japan? Do you happen to have any more absurd comparisons?

    Moreover, if international forces would not be responsible for maintaining order, what would the be the point of having them there? The Iraqi military has over 270,000 active duty members, yet they can't maintain order and safety in their own country. We would have to fill that roll if we were there.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: White House Promises to Bomb Ramadi Until City Retaken From ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Bush was out of it by then as these staments took place after his Presidency. Did you realize that terrorist groups would take over Iraq and other areas of the world once Obama , against all Military advice, pulled the troops?

    Powell wasn't relevant to the conversation as this occurred before the Obama Presidency as well..
    You're still failing to address the fact that Powell's comments on Iraq and yours as well as other apologists for Bush's gratuitous war are at odds with each other. That being that you folks refuse to admit that Hussein brought a level of peace and stability to Iraq (as Powell pointed out) that the US will be required to maintain if we break that. We broke it, and we now see that what Powell meant by, "if you break it you own it", you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave. Without a strong arm dictator in place, countries like Syria, Libya and Iraq look, well, just like they look today. So it's either leave the dictator there, or leave a perpetual and viable (not token) military force in place, the later, to your chagrin, Americans aren't willing to do. Perhaps you'd have more luck convincing your own countrymen.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: White House Promises to Bomb Ramadi Until City Retaken From ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    This has nothing to do with being "The World's Police". The American people committed themselves to a war, lost many good people, spent billions of dollars, eliminated an insanely murderous dictator, introduced democracy to the country for the first time in its history and then made an ignoble retreat by throwing it all away.

    That has absolutely nothing to do with being the "World's Police", something Congress never approved anyway.
    Sorry, democracy was NOT introduced. That was a facade of democracy. The US, nor a combination of the coalition of the willing, waved a magic wand, and suddenly Iraq was a democracy. And we spent trillions, and eliminated in Powell's words a leader that provided relative peace and stability.

    On the Democracy Index, Iraq ranks poorly. Of the 167 countries ranked for 2013, Iraq was classified as a “hybrid regime” (between a “flawed democracy” and an “authoritarian regime”) and came in at a ranking of 113. In 2013, according to Transparency International, Iraq ranked among the eight most corrupt nations and territories in the world* (with corruption defined as “abuse of entrusted power for private gain”). Freedom House simply says: "Iraq is not an electoral democracy. Although it has conducted meaningful elections, political participation and decision-making in the country remain seriously impaired by sectarian and insurgent violence, widespread corruption, and the influence of foreign powers." Freedom House has also noted that hundreds of professors were killed and many fled the country during the height of the sectarian fighting, a blow to academic freedom; the judiciary's independence is threatened by political pressure, and sectarian violence continues to threaten religious freedom.

    http://costsofwar.org/article/did-wa...istan-and-iraq
    Last edited by Montecresto; 05-20-15 at 08:41 AM.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: White House Promises to Bomb Ramadi Until City Retaken From ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Trojan View Post
    Clearly our withdrawal was a success. The Islamic State is a peaceful, just, and virtuous crowd of misunderstood Muslim Westerners who seek to create better lives for the people of Iraq and Syria! As you can see by one of the charts posted earlier by another member, the amount of deaths in Iraq have skyrocketed after our withdrawal - more than doubled.

    Do you believe the Middle East, more specifically Syria and Iraq, is better-off now under the Islamic State than it was under American occupation?
    I think Iraq was best under Saddam than either American occupation or IS.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: White House Promises to Bomb Ramadi Until City Retaken From ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    How many Islamic Extremists are there in Germany, South Korea or Japan? Do you happen to have any more absurd comparisons?
    The point clearly went over your head. Get someone to explain it to you.

    Moreover, if international forces would not be responsible for maintaining order, what would the be the point of having them there? The Iraqi military has over 270,000 active duty members, yet they can't maintain order and safety in their own country. We would have to fill that roll if we were there.
    You can pretty much take it as a given thet they are not there and they are feeling that they are risking their lives for no support will be arriving from anyone. Thats quite a different situation fron IS who is recruiting members from all over the world. Are you equating Iraqi forces with American or Coalition forces?

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    Re: White House Promises to Bomb Ramadi Until City Retaken From ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    This has nothing to do with being "The World's Police". The American people committed themselves to a war, lost many good people, spent billions of dollars, eliminated an insanely murderous dictator, introduced democracy to the country for the first time in its history and then made an ignoble retreat by throwing it all away.

    That has absolutely nothing to do with being the "World's Police", something Congress never approved anyway.
    Please. Saddam was our buddy until it was politically unfavorable for him to be. There was no moral ground there. We destabilized an entire region, spent trillions of dollars on foreign occupation with no plan on how to secure the country for the long term, more than doubled our losses from 9/11, emboldened terrorists and created an environment ripe for terrorist generation.

    Our intervention made things worse. When you go in blind and stupid, you have no chance to arrive at a proper conclusion. We are not the World Police, we are not imperials, we were not meant to fight Forever War.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: White House Promises to Bomb Ramadi Until City Retaken From ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    They did that under that madman Hussein too. Pansies.
    What did you miss? They are now US equipped and trained, under your "madman", they were not!!!
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: White House Promises to Bomb Ramadi Until City Retaken From ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Sorry, democracy was NOT introduced. That was a facade of democracy. The US, nor a combination of the coalition of the willing, waved a magic wand, and suddenly Iraq was a democracy. And we spent trillions, and eliminated in Powell's words a leader that provided relative peace and stability.
    Democracy did arrive in Iraq, people voted and people were elected. All went well and the citizens defied terrorist threats. Maybe its best to show you in pictures. https://www.google.ca/search?q=image...w=1600&bih=742

    On the Democracy Index, Iraq ranks poorly. Of the 167 countries ranked for 2013, Iraq was classified as a “hybrid regime” (between a “flawed democracy” and an “authoritarian regime”) and came in at a ranking of 113. In 2013, according to Transparency International, Iraq ranked among the eight most corrupt nations and territories in the world* (with corruption defined as “abuse of entrusted power for private gain”). Freedom House simply says: "Iraq is not an electoral democracy. Although it has conducted meaningful elections, political participation and decision-making in the country remain seriously impaired by sectarian and insurgent violence, widespread corruption, and the influence of foreign powers." Freedom House has also noted that hundreds of professors were killed and many fled the country during the height of the sectarian fighting, a blow to academic freedom; the judiciary's independence is threatened by political pressure, and sectarian violence continues to threaten religious freedom.
    In 2013, two years after Obama pulled the troops? What did you expect? Naturally the Islamists would be taking over as soon as the retreat was accomplished, and just as the military and everyone predicted. Everyone expected a new SOFA would also be renegotiated, which would have been easy enough.

    IS is overrunning the country and now you claim that Iraq is an imperfect Democracy, claiming in the previous paragraph that it was not even introduced at all.

    You may want to give this further thought before you respond.
    Last edited by Grant; 05-20-15 at 09:10 AM.

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