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Thread: Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying

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    Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying

    I wish people in the United States actually cared about this stuff.

    Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying | World news | The Guardian


    The German chancellor, Angela Merkel, is coming under increasing pressure to divulge a list of targets, including the IP addresses of individual computers, that German intelligence tracked on behalf of the US National Security Agency (NSA). Critics have accused Merkel’s staff of giving the BND foreign intelligence agency the green light to help the NSA spy on European firms and officials. The scandal has strained relations between Merkel’s conservative Christian Democratic Union and its junior coalition partner, the Social Democrats, whose leader, Sigmar Gabriel, has publicly challenged her over the affair.

    Gabriel told the German newspaper Bild am Sonntag that parliament needed to see the list, which contains names, search terms and IP addresses. The government has said it must consult the US before revealing the list, whose contents are thought crucial to establishing whether the BND was at fault in helping the NSA. Gabriel, who is also Germany’s vice-chancellor, said: “Imagine if there were suspicions that the NSA had helped the BND to spy on American firms. Congress wouldn’t hesitate for a second before looking into the documents.”

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    Re: Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying

    The "people of the United States" by majority seem to have ignorantly and rather stupidly trusted the federal government to decide for us the line on individual rights vs. national security with damn near bipartisan consensus. And worse, the further we go the more the line ends up subject to political whim.

    Internationally we have a bigger black eye with we handled Germany specifically. We not only overstepped our spying on German officials, but we apparently enlisted their help to spy on whom we directed them to for our (perhaps mutual) benefit. That has yet to be realized.

    No matter how this plays out it is clear the NSA has become an agency drunk on its ability to do whatever it wishes.
    "Every time something really bad happens, people cry out for safety, and the government answers by taking rights away from good people." - Penn Jillette.

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    Re: Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying

    Quote Originally Posted by Anomalism View Post
    I wish people in the United States actually cared about this stuff.

    Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying | World news | The Guardian


    The German chancellor, Angela Merkel, is coming under increasing pressure to divulge a list of targets, including the IP addresses of individual computers, that German intelligence tracked on behalf of the US National Security Agency (NSA). Critics have accused Merkel’s staff of giving the BND foreign intelligence agency the green light to help the NSA spy on European firms and officials. The scandal has strained relations between Merkel’s conservative Christian Democratic Union and its junior coalition partner, the Social Democrats, whose leader, Sigmar Gabriel, has publicly challenged her over the affair.

    Gabriel told the German newspaper Bild am Sonntag that parliament needed to see the list, which contains names, search terms and IP addresses. The government has said it must consult the US before revealing the list, whose contents are thought crucial to establishing whether the BND was at fault in helping the NSA. Gabriel, who is also Germany’s vice-chancellor, said: “Imagine if there were suspicions that the NSA had helped the BND to spy on American firms. Congress wouldn’t hesitate for a second before looking into the documents.”
    I'm very concerned about such things.
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    Re: Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    The "people of the United States" by majority seem to have ignorantly and rather stupidly trusted the federal government to decide for us the line on individual rights vs. national security with damn near bipartisan consensus. And worse, the further we go the more the line ends up subject to political whim.

    Internationally we have a bigger black eye with we handled Germany specifically. We not only overstepped our spying on German officials, but we apparently enlisted their help to spy on whom we directed them to for our (perhaps mutual) benefit. That has yet to be realized.

    No matter how this plays out it is clear the NSA has become an agency drunk on its ability to do whatever it wishes.
    We should defund the NSA.

    One stipulation.

    Spying on Americans is the first thing to go. Foreign citizens get the second class ticket. At the end of the day the constitution was meant for us.
    -----MOS 19D = cavalry scout = best damn MOS there is

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    Re: Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying

    Quote Originally Posted by Anomalism View Post
    I wish people in the United States actually cared about this stuff.

    Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying | World news | The Guardian


    The German chancellor, Angela Merkel, is coming under increasing pressure to divulge a list of targets, including the IP addresses of individual computers, that German intelligence tracked on behalf of the US National Security Agency (NSA). Critics have accused Merkel’s staff of giving the BND foreign intelligence agency the green light to help the NSA spy on European firms and officials. The scandal has strained relations between Merkel’s conservative Christian Democratic Union and its junior coalition partner, the Social Democrats, whose leader, Sigmar Gabriel, has publicly challenged her over the affair.

    Gabriel told the German newspaper Bild am Sonntag that parliament needed to see the list, which contains names, search terms and IP addresses. The government has said it must consult the US before revealing the list, whose contents are thought crucial to establishing whether the BND was at fault in helping the NSA. Gabriel, who is also Germany’s vice-chancellor, said: “Imagine if there were suspicions that the NSA had helped the BND to spy on American firms. Congress wouldn’t hesitate for a second before looking into the documents.”
    I think it would have been a good idea, if successive German governments since Kohl had explained to the German people how things hang together instead of lying to the population in so many existentially important areas. The German people have been being lied to especially in a security context since before Kohl and increasingly during that Chancellor's reign.

    In this specific context an American diplomat warned the German government that lying was not a good idea. But Merkel's people did. Now they have allowed the thing to escalate in a very destructive way, though the activities of NSA were totally in accordance with this and earlier governments approval. By not explaining this, the Merkel government has done the relationship with the US a vast disservice. That the Germans are a lose cannon has long been known and this here is just another demonstration of the danger of relying on them.

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    Re: Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying

    Quote Originally Posted by Luftwaffe View Post
    We should defund the NSA.

    One stipulation.

    Spying on Americans is the first thing to go. Foreign citizens get the second class ticket. At the end of the day the constitution was meant for us.
    Don't be silly. The Nsa needs improvement and better control, no doubt there. But if anything they need more funding and a government that explains why they are there and makes sure that supposedly allied governments do not lie about it to their populations like successive German governments have.

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    Re: Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Don't be silly. The Nsa needs improvement and better control, no doubt there. But if anything they need more funding and a government that explains why they are there and makes sure that supposedly allied governments do not lie about it to their populations like successive German governments have.
    The NSA needs to be abolished with any of its operations dealing with foreign enemies going to perhaps the CIA. Any operations dealing with an American citizen including the data spying bull**** needs to be stopped.

    Make two organizations one for better logistics.
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    Re: Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying

    Quote Originally Posted by Anomalism View Post
    I wish people in the United States actually cared about this stuff.

    Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying | World news | The Guardian


    The German chancellor, Angela Merkel, is coming under increasing pressure to divulge a list of targets, including the IP addresses of individual computers, that German intelligence tracked on behalf of the US National Security Agency (NSA). Critics have accused Merkel’s staff of giving the BND foreign intelligence agency the green light to help the NSA spy on European firms and officials. The scandal has strained relations between Merkel’s conservative Christian Democratic Union and its junior coalition partner, the Social Democrats, whose leader, Sigmar Gabriel, has publicly challenged her over the affair.

    Gabriel told the German newspaper Bild am Sonntag that parliament needed to see the list, which contains names, search terms and IP addresses. The government has said it must consult the US before revealing the list, whose contents are thought crucial to establishing whether the BND was at fault in helping the NSA. Gabriel, who is also Germany’s vice-chancellor, said: “Imagine if there were suspicions that the NSA had helped the BND to spy on American firms. Congress wouldn’t hesitate for a second before looking into the documents.”
    I do care. Our intelligence violated the number one rule...don't get caught.

    International espionage was and will always be an important part of any government. In peace and war. Everything from trade to security relies on intelligence. And the reality is that Germany spies on America too. Every nation engages in espionage.

    So I do care. They shouldn't have gotten caught.
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    Re: Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    The "people of the United States" by majority seem to have ignorantly and rather stupidly trusted the federal government to decide for us the line on individual rights vs. national security with damn near bipartisan consensus. And worse, the further we go the more the line ends up subject to political whim.

    Internationally we have a bigger black eye with we handled Germany specifically. We not only overstepped our spying on German officials, but we apparently enlisted their help to spy on whom we directed them to for our (perhaps mutual) benefit. That has yet to be realized.

    No matter how this plays out it is clear the NSA has become an agency drunk on its ability to do whatever it wishes.
    You are right that the damage is rather large. But it is incorrect to say that the activities of CIA, NSA et alias were overstep on their parts. The German government allowed explicitly and implicitly that the agencies to do, what they did. Schröder's Head of the Chancellery signed of on any spying that the US though it required for the safety of stationed troops. The man that signed off on it is presently Merkel's Foreign Minister. This government used the information gleaned by the agencies and actively supported their activities by supplying IT data and EU wide infrastructure. So don't let the domestic politics over here fool you. We are dealing with a very sleazy bunch of operators here and have been for quite some time.

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    Re: Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying

    Quote Originally Posted by Luftwaffe View Post
    We should defund the NSA.

    One stipulation.

    Spying on Americans is the first thing to go. Foreign citizens get the second class ticket. At the end of the day the constitution was meant for us.
    I tend to agree with you but our fundamental problem is policy, not resulting department. The only satisfactory choice here is an outright repeal of the Patriot Act in its entirety. Which would include all of the additions and extensions we have seen since. I am not talking about a stripped down replacement act, but a complete repeal.

    The NSA existed well before the Patriot Act, in its original form was a secure communications encryption / decryption agency. I do not mind that function. What I mind is what the NSA has become due to politician whim and honestly reactionary judgement with Constitutional question. Bulk data collection, storage, and analysis was an addition via policy.

    In principle I am agreeing with defunding the NSA, DEA, ATF, and a dozen other agencies designed to do one thing but ending up with a host of negative sociological impacts. But we have to keep that spotlight on the politicians that willfully exchange our fundamental freedoms and principles for government overreach under the guise of "national security" entirely at our expense (in every sense of the word.)

    How we handle other nations and foreign citizens will then become much more clear once we get our own house in order.
    "Every time something really bad happens, people cry out for safety, and the government answers by taking rights away from good people." - Penn Jillette.

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