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Thread: Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying

  1. #11
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    Re: Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    You are right that the damage is rather large. But it is incorrect to say that the activities of CIA, NSA et alias were overstep on their parts. The German government allowed explicitly and implicitly that the agencies to do, what they did. Schröder's Head of the Chancellery signed of on any spying that the US though it required for the safety of stationed troops. The man that signed off on it is presently Merkel's Foreign Minister. This government used the information gleaned by the agencies and actively supported their activities by supplying IT data and EU wide infrastructure. So don't let the domestic politics over here fool you. We are dealing with a very sleazy bunch of operators here and have been for quite some time.
    Perhaps, these are good points. Given what we know, I cannot let go of the continual expansion of power we see play out due to policy. We really screwed up here in how we approach our allies, based on the ability the government gave itself over its own citizens.

    "Very sleazy bunch of operators"... understatement of the decade.
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    Re: Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    I tend to agree with you but our fundamental problem is policy, not resulting department. The only satisfactory choice here is an outright repeal of the Patriot Act in its entirety. Which would include all of the additions and extensions we have seen since. I am not talking about a stripped down replacement act, but a complete repeal.

    The NSA existed well before the Patriot Act, in its original form was a secure communications encryption / decryption agency. I do not mind that function. What I mind is what the NSA has become due to politician whim and honestly reactionary judgement with Constitutional question. Bulk data collection, storage, and analysis was an addition via policy.

    In principle I am agreeing with defunding the NSA, DEA, ATF, and a dozen other agencies designed to do one thing but ending up with a host of negative sociological impacts. But we have to keep that spotlight on the politicians that willfully exchange our fundamental freedoms and principles for government overreach under the guise of "national security" entirely at our expense (in every sense of the word.)

    How we handle other nations and foreign citizens will then become much more clear once we get our own house in order.
    Indeed the PATRIOT act is, if taken in with context, an oxymoron.
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    Re: Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying

    Quote Originally Posted by Luftwaffe View Post
    The NSA needs to be abolished with any of its operations dealing with foreign enemies going to perhaps the CIA. Any operations dealing with an American citizen including the data spying bull**** needs to be stopped.

    Make two organizations one for better logistics.
    That is a fine demand. It does not convince me.

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    Re: Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying

    Quote Originally Posted by Anomalism View Post
    I wish people in the United States actually cared about this stuff.

    Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying | World news | The Guardian


    The German chancellor, Angela Merkel, is coming under increasing pressure to divulge a list of targets, including the IP addresses of individual computers, that German intelligence tracked on behalf of the US National Security Agency (NSA). Critics have accused Merkel’s staff of giving the BND foreign intelligence agency the green light to help the NSA spy on European firms and officials. The scandal has strained relations between Merkel’s conservative Christian Democratic Union and its junior coalition partner, the Social Democrats, whose leader, Sigmar Gabriel, has publicly challenged her over the affair.

    Gabriel told the German newspaper Bild am Sonntag that parliament needed to see the list, which contains names, search terms and IP addresses. The government has said it must consult the US before revealing the list, whose contents are thought crucial to establishing whether the BND was at fault in helping the NSA. Gabriel, who is also Germany’s vice-chancellor, said: “Imagine if there were suspicions that the NSA had helped the BND to spy on American firms. Congress wouldn’t hesitate for a second before looking into the documents.”
    Isn't that the same Angela Merkel that was outraged to find that the US was spying on her?
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    Re: Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    Perhaps, these are good points. Given what we know, I cannot let go of the continual expansion of power we see play out due to policy. We really screwed up here in how we approach our allies, based on the ability the government gave itself over its own citizens.

    "Very sleazy bunch of operators"... understatement of the decade.
    There is no doubt that we need to clean up our act. But I am not at all convinced that reducing the amount of data mining is the way to go.

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    Re: Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    There is no doubt that we need to clean up our act. But I am not at all convinced that reducing the amount of data mining is the way to go.
    Spying on foreign nations? Or our own? Or just getting caught?
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    Re: Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    Spying on foreign nations? Or our own? Or just getting caught?
    Explain why we do things better.

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    Re: Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Explain why we do things better.
    So I take it you would prefer the not get caught approach? I'm not exactly sure what your response meant.

    I know that we can and should spy on other nations though. National security isn't the only reason. Global politics isn't a board game. There are no rules. Cheating isn't really cheating.
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    Re: Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    So I take it you would prefer the not get caught approach? I'm not exactly sure what your response meant.

    I know that we can and should spy on other nations though. National security isn't the only reason. Global politics isn't a board game. There are no rules. Cheating isn't really cheating.
    The response was that we haven't been explaining why we do things well enough and must do it better.

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    Re: Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying

    Quote Originally Posted by Luftwaffe View Post
    Indeed the PATRIOT act is, if taken in with context, an oxymoron.
    It is a perfect example of how they spin in an effort to deceive, and all these years later as Congress prepares to do it again, their efforts were very successful.

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