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Thread: ISIS seizes key Iraqi city of Ramadi as government forces pull back

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    Re: ISIS seizes key Iraqi city of Ramadi as government forces pull back

    Quote Originally Posted by LeoVlaming View Post
    The alternative to removing Saddam Hussein was a couple of decades more of occasional bombing of Iraq and a continuing threat to the region. It would have been better if he could have been removed by an internal uprising and/or coup but this was tried and failed.
    It still comes down to the next one in charge. In this case Iraq ended up in the hands of a very weak government over a weak enough military that a significant portion of the nation is no longer under their control in any sense. That is the point we have to evaluate, we have no choice. Ramadi is what, all of 60 miles away from Baghdad.

    How can we ignore all the failures of the current Iraqi government?
    "Every time something really bad happens, people cry out for safety, and the government answers by taking rights away from good people." - Penn Jillette.

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    Re: ISIS seizes key Iraqi city of Ramadi as government forces pull back

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    It still comes down to the next one in charge. In this case Iraq ended up in the hands of a very weak government over a weak enough military that a significant portion of the nation is no longer under their control in any sense. That is the point we have to evaluate, we have no choice. Ramadi is what, all of 60 miles away from Baghdad.

    How can we ignore all the failures of the current Iraqi government?
    I certainly wouldn't say we should ignore the (many) failings of the current Iraqi government. Iraq has ceased to exist as a country and it is time to recognize this, for example by recognizing the right of the Kurds to form their own state (right now they are the most stable part of the country, another one of the benefits of the US intervention in Iraq).

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    Re: ISIS seizes key Iraqi city of Ramadi as government forces pull back

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    I'm not trying to say that Saddam was a good guy here, just pointing out the picture of Iraq then and now. Looking back it stands to reason that invading Iraq was not such a bright idea, the lasting effects will be something the next several Presidents will have to deal with. We are already up to 4 Presidents in a row to drop a bomb on Iraq for one reason or another, and as of late Iraq is in far worse shape today.
    The intelligence communities consensus 2006 NIE concluded that the invasion and occupation of Iraq caused an increase in global terrorism, and made America less safe. I doubt that by pointing that out that they were declaring that Saddam Hussein was a good guy.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: ISIS seizes key Iraqi city of Ramadi as government forces pull back

    Quote Originally Posted by LeoVlaming View Post
    I certainly wouldn't say we should ignore the (many) failings of the current Iraqi government. Iraq has ceased to exist as a country and it is time to recognize this, for example by recognizing the right of the Kurds to form their own state (right now they are the most stable part of the country, another one of the benefits of the US intervention in Iraq).
    I am going to ask you to clarify, as it sounds like you may be saying the instability in Iraq is a problem but the benefit of the Kurds being closer to forming their own State makes this worthwhile.
    "Every time something really bad happens, people cry out for safety, and the government answers by taking rights away from good people." - Penn Jillette.

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    Re: ISIS seizes key Iraqi city of Ramadi as government forces pull back

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    The intelligence communities consensus 2006 NIE concluded that the invasion and occupation of Iraq caused an increase in global terrorism, and made America less safe. I doubt that by pointing that out that they were declaring that Saddam Hussein was a good guy.
    That is not really what I was getting at, really look at what we are saying in this thread.
    "Every time something really bad happens, people cry out for safety, and the government answers by taking rights away from good people." - Penn Jillette.

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    Re: ISIS seizes key Iraqi city of Ramadi as government forces pull back

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    That is not really what I was getting at, really look at what we are saying in this thread.
    I was agreeing with your position.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: ISIS seizes key Iraqi city of Ramadi as government forces pull back

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    I am going to ask you to clarify, as it sounds like you may be saying the instability in Iraq is a problem but the benefit of the Kurds being closer to forming their own State makes this worthwhile.
    No, that is not what I'm saying.
    What i'm saying is that the current Iraqi government is a shambles and that it is a mistake to cling to Iraq as a single functioning state, because it isn't.
    I am also saying that one of the conclusions to be drawn from this is that it is time to recognize the legitimate aspirations of the Kurds, who have established a functioning (but unrecognized) state inside Iraq.
    And I am also saying that the fact that at least the Kurds were able to do this was one of the benefits of the US intervention in Iraq. (There were many others)

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    Re: ISIS seizes key Iraqi city of Ramadi as government forces pull back

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    That is not really what I was getting at, really look at what we are saying in this thread.
    He isn't interested in reading or understanding anything anybody else posts.

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    Re: ISIS seizes key Iraqi city of Ramadi as government forces pull back

    Quote Originally Posted by LeoVlaming View Post
    No, that is not what I'm saying.
    What i'm saying is that the current Iraqi government is a shambles and that it is a mistake to cling to Iraq as a single functioning state, because it isn't.
    I am also saying that one of the conclusions to be drawn from this is that it is time to recognize the legitimate aspirations of the Kurds, who have established a functioning (but unrecognized) state inside Iraq.
    And I am also saying that the fact that at least the Kurds were able to do this was one of the benefits of the US intervention in Iraq. (There were many others)
    Then my follow up question has to be what would be your policy suggestion for all of Iraq? Because at this point, regardless of Kurdish Independence, all that is left is to either watch the implosion eventually complete where the current Iraqi government completely fails, or agree to the "South Korea" model of permanent military occupation.
    "Every time something really bad happens, people cry out for safety, and the government answers by taking rights away from good people." - Penn Jillette.

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    Re: ISIS seizes key Iraqi city of Ramadi as government forces pull back

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    Then my follow up question has to be what would be your policy suggestion for all of Iraq? Because at this point, regardless of Kurdish Independence, all that is left is to either watch the implosion eventually complete where the current Iraqi government completely fails, or agree to the "South Korea" model of permanent military occupation.
    Leaving apart the Kurdish region, a solution is not easy and a permanent solution can probably only be achieved in the framework of a wider reorganization of the Middle East. But currently the stars are not aligned for that, that will take a much wider regional war. In the absence of that the ideal scenario would be for the Jordanian Army to intervene in Western (i.e. Sunni) Iraq but I very much doubt the Jordanians have the appetite for that. So it will have to be a policy of muddling along.
    In any event I would advocate a much more effective air campaign that relentlessly bombs IS wherever they can be found. Investing in the iraqi Army has proved to be wasted money.

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