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Letting Shell drill in Arctic could lead to catastrophic oil spill, experts warn

Why? He hasn't lost his policies and he has the machine working for him rather than against him.

I like him, I don't much like either of the dinosaurs.
 
I like him, I don't much like either of the dinosaurs.

Well I'm all for the Dems becoming more like him so if he and Elizabeth Warren start garnering stronger followings, I think we can have that.
 
Well I'm all for the Dems becoming more like him so if he and Elizabeth Warren start garnering stronger followings, I think we can have that.

Well yes, IF that could actually happen. Have you ever listened to "brunch with Bernie Sanders" on Thom Hartman's show?
 
Well yes, IF that could actually happen.

Him and Warren pushing the way is better than the Clinton DLC wing pushing it to the right. Seems like the swing to the left is whats happening as of late. Sure has Hillary going to the left these days.
 
I think people are greatly underestimating the amount of influence Bernie wields among the youth.
 
I think people are greatly underestimating the amount of influence Bernie wields among the youth.

Well the old folks own the ballot box generally and if they start actually paying attention to the policies and see what he pushes and works for with regards to social security and medicaid and such, he could have them in his corner as well.
 
Him and Warren pushing the way is better than the Clinton DLC wing pushing it to the right. Seems like the swing to the left is whats happening as of late. Sure has Hillary going to the left these days.

And anybody that falls for Hillary's bull****, deserves her I suppose. She's in the center at best, and the hawk that she is puts her a smidgen right of center. Btw, I added a question to that other post for you apparently after you quoted it.
 
Well yes, IF that could actually happen. Have you ever listened to "brunch with Bernie Sanders" on Thom Hartman's show?

Oh hell yeah. I can't catch it all the time but I do parts some times when I go to lunch. I used to be able to listen much more in the past. Not so much any more.
 
How is that taking away from peoples' choices? We have gasoline cars today that flood the market. I don't see any other type of car. So if you have a problem with having green energy transportation consume the markets, then you have the same issue with gasoline cars. Only way to be consistent. So I guess cars are a form of coercion?
If the only products that are sold on the market are electric cars, maglev, fuel cell, what have you, then those products would compete in the market.
The only way to to make the only products sold in the market green, is to regulate the others out of existence.
That is expressly taking away peoples choices!

You are right, that is a problem. I know they can make space planes using compressed air air planes and are then laser ignited. But that's for like providing a payload to the ISS.
This is Science fiction, and not available yet.

With ships you could put your payload under a sheet of solar cells. All equipment and payload have solar cells on top of them. Once the circuit is complete the pumping energy from the solar panels will power the engines. The key is area. The more area you got the more electricity that will be generated. Something to be explored at least.
Let's look at the math,
Emma Maersk - Container vessel
1300 feet long, by 183 feet wide. say 237,000 sq feet.
80,080 kW engine
SolarWorld SW 315 Pro XL
315 watt panel is 21 sq feet
237,000/21=11285 panels *315 watts=3,554,775 watts= 3,555kW
So 3,555 Kw available, 80,080 needed!


Those big ass tractors man I have no idea. Which makes me nervous. I know everyone will say "but we have this many years left," but seriously, how are we going to power our current transportation? Are we going to have to redesign the process of doing things?
I am not sure you have been listening, we can make our own carbon neutral hydrocarbon fuels.
I know space X has a kickin new train. There were ideas for maglev trains. Maglev trains have a huge potential with solar energy. Just power the magnets and off you go.
I've seen ideas of totally automating the transportation system, at least for citizens. Everything is powered by sun, and no one would own a car. The units are public.
Again taking away peoples freedom to choose how they want to live!

But you have a very good point. How are we going to supply energy to our great huge forms of transportation? We don't have hydrocarbons forever. Apparently you can make flammable hydrocarbons, but I do hope we move past that to something less intrusive to the environment. Time will tell.

PS - Fuell cells?
Because we can make our own hydrocarbon fuels, we do have them forever, think of them as nature's
almost perfect energy storage container.
Fuel cells have the best potential because they are not heat engines,
(I.E. they do not have to follow Carnot's rules.). The only problem with fuels cells is hydrogen
is difficult to carry around, and the infrastructure is almost non existent.
An interim option would be to run the fuel cells with hydrogen evolved from conventional fuels.
Diesel to Hydrogen Fuel Processor | Power + Energy
The trick is to allow the market, and peoples choices a path to evolve.
 
There is no doubt in my mind that drilling for oil in the Arctic Ocean can be done safely with sufficient regulation. We are a clever species we can do it. The problem is the same companies that want to drill there are the same companies that spend hundreds of millions of dollars every year bribing congress to make sure those regulations are as watered down as possible.
 
There is no doubt in my mind that drilling for oil in the Arctic Ocean can be done safely with sufficient regulation. We are a clever species we can do it. The problem is the same companies that want to drill there are the same companies that spend hundreds of millions of dollars every year bribing congress to make sure those regulations are as watered down as possible.
Seems to be the way of the world. Much the same happens when it comes to food regs. The FDA is in the back pocket of the big producers.
 
Seems to be the way of the world. Much the same happens when it comes to food regs. The FDA is in the back pocket of the big producers.

The oil companies literally write many of the regulations that regulate their industry. In any given year, the oil industry will outspend environmental groups by more than 100 to 1 in lobbying congress. In regards to safety and environmental protection, they do just enough to satisfy their insurers.
 
The oil companies literally write many of the regulations that regulate their industry. In any given year, the oil industry will outspend environmental groups by more than 100 to 1 in lobbying congress. In regards to safety and environmental protection, they do just enough to satisfy their insurers.

The food people are worse. They just fly much lower under the radar.
 
The oil companies literally write many of the regulations that regulate their industry. In any given year, the oil industry will outspend environmental groups by more than 100 to 1 in lobbying congress. In regards to safety and environmental protection, they do just enough to satisfy their insurers.

Problem is, Obama's not living up to his campaign promises.

Obama's lobbyist rule: Promise Broken | PolitiFact
 
In regards to safety and environmental protection, they do just enough to satisfy their insurers.

This implies that the what insurers insist on is equal to or less than current safety and environmental protection regulations. Its a simple fact that they're not. The vetting by insurers pale in comparison. Most require the companies to go above and beyond regulatory requirements.
 
The oil companies literally write many of the regulations that regulate their industry. In any given year, the oil industry will outspend environmental groups by more than 100 to 1 in lobbying congress. In regards to safety and environmental protection, they do just enough to satisfy their insurers.
Drilling in the Arctic Ocean is not a matter of enough regulation, it's a simple case that given time there will be a major spill. And even a relatvely small one is a total disaster.

I spent some time on a 4-wheel ATV today cruising the Arctic Ocean beach. It's one of the more pleasant experiences I've managed to have; and I spend as much time as I can there in the summer.

All I could see looking North, was ice, and that will be true for another month. The significance is that oil and ice do not get along! We simply do not have any way of cleaning up oil in the presence of ice. None. Zilch. Can't be done.

A polar bear, on the Arctic Ocean ice, in early June of 2012. One oil spill, and he's gone. We can't get the oil out of the water or the ice... or off of a live polar bear either!

d4a_2645.s.jpg
 
Drilling in the Arctic Ocean is not a matter of enough regulation, it's a simple case that given time there will be a major spill. And even a relatvely small one is a total disaster.

I spent some time on a 4-wheel ATV today cruising the Arctic Ocean beach. It's one of the more pleasant experiences I've managed to have; and I spend as much time as I can there in the summer.

All I could see looking North, was ice, and that will be true for another month. The significance is that oil and ice do not get along! We simply do not have any way of cleaning up oil in the presence of ice. None. Zilch. Can't be done.

A polar bear, on the Arctic Ocean ice, in early June of 2012. One oil spill, and he's gone. We can't get the oil out of the water or the ice... or off of a live polar bear either!

d4a_2645.s.jpg

As long as human beings exist there will be accidents. Your solution is that we all commit collective suicide?
 
As long as human beings exist there will be accidents. Your solution is that we all commit collective suicide?

First, there are activities that we humans don't engage in because of the litigating risks, other options are found. And two, until we have adequate safe guards and enforcement in place, the big oil companies have proven insufficient in policing themselves, the bottom line always speaks the loudest, and third, not allowing Shell to drill there would not equate to human suicide.
 
As long as human beings exist there will be accidents. Your solution is that we all commit collective suicide?
My solution is to avoid suicidal acts. Drilling in the Arctic Ocean is like putting just one round in your revolver and expecting the gun to never go off as you repeatly hold it to your head and pull the trigger without even spinning the cylinder! It is not a question of if there will be a serious problem, just a matter of how soon.

Incidentaly, we don't call those events "accidents"... purposeful idiocy doesn't make it an accident.
 
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