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Obama:"Palestinians deserve an end to the occupation"

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cpwill said:
Yeah. Nukes aren't exactly the most fungible of response options.
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It would be like if my neighbor was playing his music too loud, so in retaliation, I...well...I nuke him.
 
ludin said:
then please vacate your land and property and give it back to the Indians I will be waiting for you to do this.
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dude, i AM native American
an indian currently owns my property. he is Cherokee
try again


well for a while after WWII the UN was doing just that.
why do you think japans military is basically nothing more than homeland defense?
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even you realize that the US does not occupy and control japan, italy, and germany, which proves your justification for occupation to be a wrong one



you seem to have an issue with it.
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actually, that would be you
you are the one who expresses opposition to the occupied people resisting the occupiers



If the Palestinians lived like civilized people and didn't commit unprovoked attacks against Israel and let them live in peace then
there would be no need for an occupation.
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have you no sense of history. the Palestinians object to their present occupiers just as the American patriots objected to the british occupation
do you resent that your forefathers took up resistance to oust the british occupiers from the Americans' own lands


as it sits down there is a need as the Palestinian government has no problem committing and approving of unprovoked attacks.
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do you not view an unwelcome armed party occupying your property as being a provocation


until the time that their government see Israel and recognizes Israel as a real nation and acknowledges the borders as they are
Israel has the authority to protect it's people from harm.
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the Palestinians have already recognized israel
and they recognize the same israeli borders as does the UN - the party which recognized israel to exist
israel would subject its people to less harm if it would abandon the lands of another people

so my position has plenty of logic.
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no, your position continues to be devoid of logic
see above
 
Cardinal said:
It would be like if my neighbor was playing his music too loud, so in retaliation, I...well...I nuke him.
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Yeah, but I think we both know that what he means is "if your neighbor is shooting rockets at your schools, you just let him, if your Israel".
 
KLATTU said:
Israel would give up those settlements in a heartbeat if the Palestinians could show they could be trusted for more than 5 minutes. Thus far that hasn't happened.
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not true
if israel abandoned the land of Palestine and returned to the UN decreed israeli borders, why would the Palestinians then attack israel
and with what means
 
KLATTU said:
Oh cut it out.A neighbor intent on wiping you out is a huge threat. Whay are pretending that it isn't??? hmmmmmmmmmmmm
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a neighbor without the means
there is no genuine threat
but in this instance, it serves as a justification to displace another people and take their lands
 
justabubba said:
if israel abandoned the land of Palestine and returned to the UN decreed israeli borders, why would the Palestinians then attack israel
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Wow. I just don't....how...what....dude...

Have you never read a newspaper?? I mean, I've seen you participate in these debates countless times. How do you not know the answer to your own question?
 
justabubba said:
you see israel as being threatened
please share with us which nation - or aggregation of nations - in the region has the meas to terminate the nation of israel
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There are lots of threats that are not lethal but do major or intolerable damage. A state can hardly allow continuous attack with albeit primitive rockets or a while ago with baby-bombs. Let down the guard and see hundred civilians killed and the PM would be toast. The demographics are a threat. And let a small shift occur in international power and you would see the scale of danger emanating from the neighbors easily grow beyond your dreams. Oh, no. You are in the international theater and no longer in Kansas.
 
Anomalism said:
I wish these words would lead to something positive happening.

Obama: Palestinians deserve an end to the occupation - Israel News, Ynetnews

"I will never give up on the hope for peace between Israelis and Palestinians," said Obama, "Palestinians deserve an end to the occupation and the daily indignities that come with it. That's why we've worked so hard over the years for a two-state solution and to develop innovative ways to address Israel's security and Palestinian sovereignty needs." Obama's comments came prior to a meeting of the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) in which he is due to sit with key leaders of six Arab nations from the Middle East.

While his hope remains, Obama said, "It's no secret that we now have a very difficult path forward. As a result, the United States is taking a hard look at our approach to the conflict," suggesting that the EU is not alone in considering policy adjustments with Israel. "Addressing the lasting impact in Gaza of last summer's conflict should also be central to any effort," concluded Obama. "Ultimately, the parties will need to address not just Gaza's immediate humanitarian and reconstruction needs, but also core challenges to Gaza's future within a two-state context, including reinvigorating Gaza's connection with the West Bank and reestablishing strong commercial links with Israel and the global economy."
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As long as the US congress is in the pocket of AIPAC, the Israeli lobby, there will never be peace and Israel will continue to occupy these indigenous people, the Palestinians. Any solution to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict should be taken out of US hands and left to the Europeans who are not controlled by Israel. The Jewish lobby has bought practically every Republican and some Democrats lock stock and barrel, so in essence, the US congress is there to protect Israel whether the Zionist nation is right or wrong, and the American people will only get more Arab enemies in exchange for their taxpayer dollars to Israel.
 
Cardinal said:
Your understanding of Israel's "long term security needs" is surreal at best, as you appear to believe that simply possessing nukes is sufficient. What do you think Israel is going to do when a newly sovereign Palestine fires rockets at Tel Aviv? Nuke the West Bank 32 miles way? Think! Stop looking at the needs of just one side, study the demands and needs of both sides...and think!
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it would do what it does today
use its abundant and capable conventional weapons and obliterate the source of the opposition

but if the well equipped saudis came to the aid of the offending Palestinian nation, then israel would have the means to deter such a military power

you would do well to apply your own admonition
 
justabubba said:
not true
if israel abandoned the land of Palestine and returned to the UN decreed israeli borders, why would the Palestinians then attack Israel
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For the same reasons that they did the first time around? Because they demand all the land and do not recognize (and will continue to refuse to recognize) Israel's right to exist?


You seem to forget that we've already had this experiment. Israel withdrew from Gaza. The Palestinians had a chance to show what they would do when given autonomy. Apparently what they wanted to do was elect a terror group to run their government and continue the assault on Israel.
 
justabubba said:
it would do what it does today
use its abundant and capable conventional weapons and obliterate the source of the opposition
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Yeah, they did that back in the late 40s and then again in the 60s. So they followed your proscription, and of course you continue to attack them for it.
 
justabubba said:
it would do what it does today
use its abundant and capable conventional weapons and obliterate the source of the opposition

but if the well equipped saudis came to the aid of the offending Palestinian nation, then israel would have the means to deter such a military power

you would do well to apply your own admonition
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Alright. Well, I think it's clear then that you don't actually want peace. You just want an ongoing state of conflict but with the border in a different place. Whether you're aware of it or not that's exactly what you're advocating.

It's positions like yours make me think that foreigners have absolutely no business determining how another country resolves its conflicts. So many people have learned nothing from the partitioning of the Middle East after WW1, our interference in Iran that led to the Iranian Revolution, our support of the Mujahadeen that lead Al Qaeda and our invasion of Iraq.
 
cpwill said:
I appreciate you demonstrating the intellectual depth of your position.
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thank you
i only wish i could return the compliment



:shrug: Arabs occupied Jewish land for over a thousand years. It's time to end that occupation and return to the borders assigned by God.
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i find the borders identified and recognized by the UN to be more credible - and documentable



OR we can agree that going back in time to find the borders most advantageous to the side-you-favor and declaring that for some reason to be the default position is dumb. The Arabs were offered those UN borders - they refused them and instead declared war. They lost.
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your understanding of history is in error
it was the israelis who began the wars
 
justabubba said:
i find the borders identified and recognized by the UN to be more credible - and documentable
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:lol: that's interesting. I had no idea that there were no documents made after 1949. :)

your understanding of history is in error
it was the israelis who began the wars
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On the contrary - you are in error. Israel accepted the UN Partition. The Arabs did not, and instead declared war. ;) You could even look it up.
 
Cardinal said:
Wow. I just don't....how...what....dude...

Have you never read a newspaper?? I mean, I've seen you participate in these debates countless times. How do you not know the answer to your own question?
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you fail to recognize that israel remains a occupying armed force
it's a continuing provocation

when the American patriots ran the british out of American lands, the Americans did not then follow the brits across the ocean to fire at them
the british departure eliminated the provocation that incited the armed resistance

surprised i need to offer such remedial history to some of our forum members
 
cpwill said:
For the same reasons that they did the first time around? Because they demand all the land and do not recognize (and will continue to refuse to recognize) Israel's right to exist?


You seem to forget that we've already had this experiment. Israel withdrew from Gaza. The Palestinians had a chance to show what they would do when given autonomy. Apparently what they wanted to do was elect a terror group to run their government and continue the assault on Israel.
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ah
an embargoed gaza
yet you object to an embargoed israel
 
justabubba said:
thank you
i only wish i could return the compliment




i find the borders identified and recognized by the UN to be more credible - and documentable




your understanding of history is in error
it was the israelis who began the wars
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Maybe we should just leave the boarders as they are. What do you think speaks against that. Everyone has been living there for half a century now.
 
cpwill said:
:lol: that's interesting. I had no idea that there were no documents made after 1949. :)



On the contrary - you are in error. Israel accepted the UN Partition. The Arabs did not, and instead declared war. ;) You could even look it up.
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the israelis initiated the hostile actions
look it up
 
joG said:
Maybe we should just leave the boarders as they are. What do you think speaks against that. Everyone has been living there for half a century now.
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give me your address
i will come and visit you for five minutes and then declare your property to be mine by 'virtue' of my occupation
 
justabubba said:
you fail to recognize that israel remains a occupying armed force
it's a continuing provocation

when the American patriots ran the british out of American lands, the Americans did not then follow the brits across the ocean to fire at them
the british departure eliminated the provocation that incited the armed resistance

surprised i need to offer such remedial history to some of our forum members
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Your post is a non-sequitur. Now answer your own question: what reason would the Palestinians have for attacking Israel even if the UN borders were re-established? Fair warning: researching this will require up to three minutes of your time.
 
cpwill said:
:lol: that's interesting. I had no idea that there were no documents made after 1949. :)



On the contrary - you are in error. Israel accepted the UN Partition. The Arabs did not, and instead declared war. ;) You could even look it up.
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Look it up, as in a reputable source?!

What -- and risk all that cognitive dissonance?

Might be too damaging to his psyche for him to ever stray from the electronic intifada, you know.
 
justabubba said:
give me your address
i will come and visit you for five minutes and then declare your property to be mine by 'virtue' of my occupation
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The best thing will probably be to give you some other address. ;)
 
justabubba said:
ah
an embargoed gaza
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Gaza was embargoed by Israel for the same reason it was embargoed by Egypt - because they chose to put a terrorist organization in charge and attack their neighbors.

So yes, we've already run your experiment wherein the Palestinians get full autonomy to use as they please. It pleased them to attack the nation state whose existence they would deny.
 
justabubba said:
israel is the only nation in the region with nuclear weapons
of course its security needs are guaranteed
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Nuclear weapons don't seem to deter terrorists from attacking.
You're talking nonsense. Until the security needs of Israeli citizens can be guaranteed the occupation must not be lifted.

that does not make armed resistance to an occupying power terrorism
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The murder of innocents for political or religious purposes is always terrorism.

there is no possible way to assure that no citizen of israel will ever be threatened
just as there is no way to guarantee that no citizen of the US would be threatened while residing in the US
but given israel's disproportionately stronger military, only a fool would believe that israel is genuinely subjected to threat as a nation
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No there is no possible way to assure that but the occupation does dramatically decrease the ability of Palestinians to carry out terror attacks, which is evident in the amount of terrorism coming from the occupied West Bank in comparison with the unoccupied Gaza Strip. It's absurd to expect Israel to simply disengage from the WB when it knows for certain that once it does so the security of its citizens will be exposed.

one of my best friends and his family are currently in israel, visiting their extended family. his brother is buried there. i care for the lives of israelis
but i also care for the lives of Palestinians - to the same degree
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You may claim you care and you might even believe that you do but your proposed actions suggest otherwise since you cannot claim you care for the citizens and then call for them to be exposed to terror attacks. If you wish to provide a suggestion that will bring an end to the conflict you cannot just do so without addressing the Israeli side's needs or provide any alternative at all to the occupation.

and while i recognize that rogue actions are inflicted against the israeli citizens, my belief is that subjugating the Palestinian people, displacing them from their own lands, only perpetuates the anger that results in armed conflict

and no state is advocating massacre
but one state is occupying the land of another people
why should those people on the occupied lands have reason to believe in good will from the occupiers
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The majority of Israelis aren't settlers and aren't interested in the WB and want nothing to do with it, certainly not with Gaza. The occupation will however exist as long as there is no solution, as long as the security of Israeli citizens cannot be guaranteed by a final conclusive agreement.
 
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