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Thread: Pope Francis says many powerful people don't want peace because they live off war.

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    Re: Pope Francis says many powerful people don't want peace because they live off war

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    I know that is the standpoint of the RC, which is sorry. It is true, of course, that there are people that maximize their income from far away wars. This does not, however, in any way validate the statement, that the manufactures of weapons are in any way responsible for wars' occurrence. That is wrong thinking and extremely dangerous at that, as it instills in immature minds the idea, that it makes sense to eliminate weapons to stop war, when the opposite is true. This might seem trivial to the well read on the theme, but must be mentioned in any event.
    That's a false choice - no one proposes to eliminate arms.

    Seems to me self evident, however, that if perhaps 400 of the Fortune 500 profit from war, that a big objection TO war is eliminated.

    I doubt if any arms makers are sitting around saying, "You know, if the U.S. engages in an effort to kill and maim 10s of thousands of people with our weapons, we make more money, so let's lobby for war!" But neither will the big arms makers spend any money lobbying against war. It's not in their interests to oppose a full scale invasion of, say, Iran. And if doing so means a few extra $billions in profits, human nature as it is will dictate that arguments for war might take on a more favorable tint. Furthermore, those individuals who are inherently "hawkish" in their outlook on national defense would tend to take senior level positions with arms makers. Not going to have a peace activist rise to the senior ranks of the big defense companies. More likely is those ranks would be filled with former military than hippies from the 60s and 70s. So interests and profits will naturally align. Hawkish politicians get support from defense companies, providing another incentive, whether that is merely a self reinforcing cycle or corrupt or sinister doesn't really matter.

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    Re: Pope Francis says many powerful people don't want peace because they live off war

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    That's a false choice - no one proposes to eliminate arms.

    Seems to me self evident, however, that if perhaps 400 of the Fortune 500 profit from war, that a big objection TO war is eliminated.

    I doubt if any arms makers are sitting around saying, "You know, if the U.S. engages in an effort to kill and maim 10s of thousands of people with our weapons, we make more money, so let's lobby for war!" But neither will the big arms makers spend any money lobbying against war. It's not in their interests to oppose a full scale invasion of, say, Iran. And if doing so means a few extra $billions in profits, human nature as it is will dictate that arguments for war might take on a more favorable tint. Furthermore, those individuals who are inherently "hawkish" in their outlook on national defense would tend to take senior level positions with arms makers. Not going to have a peace activist rise to the senior ranks of the big defense companies. More likely is those ranks would be filled with former military than hippies from the 60s and 70s. So interests and profits will naturally align. Hawkish politicians get support from defense companies, providing another incentive, whether that is merely a self reinforcing cycle or corrupt or sinister doesn't really matter.
    It is trivial that turning the other cheek is a losing strategy in world without robustly guaranteed security. Even war can be a better solution. There is no doubt in this matter. You can be as peace-loving and meek as you want. If the other guy wants, he can take everything away from the unprepared or even just weaker country. That is human behavior and the nature of the game. It is lovable, it is sweet to be a peacenik. They are so nice and such good people. But woe is the land, where they gain power. But, of course, when they gain power, they will end the idiocy.

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    Re: Pope Francis says many powerful people don't want peace because they live off war

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    It is trivial that turning the other cheek is a losing strategy in world without robustly guaranteed security. Even war can be a better solution. There is no doubt in this matter. You can be as peace-loving and meek as you want. If the other guy wants, he can take everything away from the unprepared or even just weaker country. That is human behavior and the nature of the game. It is lovable, it is sweet to be a peacenik. They are so nice and such good people. But woe is the land, where they gain power. But, of course, when they gain power, they will end the idiocy.
    I'm not arguing for our country adopting the attitude of a 'peacenik.' What I'm pointing out is that if $trillions are spent pursuing war, those who profit from it will, inevitably, lobby for more of it. I think we should as a country accept this and take suggestions for more military adventures with this reality in mind. There are also financial incentives for our elected representatives to vote for war. So the system has a bunch of ingrained and quite large incentives that all else equal, $trillions spent and many, many $billions in profits, tilt the table in favor of military action.

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    Re: Pope Francis says many powerful people don't want peace because they live off war

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    This does not, however, in any way validate the statement, that the manufactures of weapons are in any way responsible for wars' occurrence.
    It does not? SO then you believe that it is a good thing that every two bit asshole with an issue or gripe can arm himself and scores of his asshole buddies and declare themselves fighters for some cause.

    That is wrong thinking and extremely dangerous at that, as it instills in immature minds the idea, that it makes sense to eliminate weapons to stop war, when the opposite is true.
    Yes it takes an immature mind to oversimplify and misrepresent a serious issue.

    This might seem trivial to the well read on the theme, but must be mentioned in any event.
    On the contrary, it is not trivial at all, but you are attempting to reduce it to a trivial talking point.
    My views are my views, then there is the Christian view:
    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    Of course the third world dregs are breeding like rabbits.

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    Re: Pope Francis says many powerful people don't want peace because they live off war

    Quote Originally Posted by prometeus View Post
    It does not? SO then you believe that it is a good thing that every two bit asshole with an issue or gripe can arm himself and scores of his asshole buddies and declare themselves fighters for some cause.

    Yes it takes an immature mind to oversimplify and misrepresent a serious issue.

    On the contrary, it is not trivial at all, but you are attempting to reduce it to a trivial talking point.
    I think are too excited.

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    Re: Pope Francis says many powerful people don't want peace because they live off war

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    I think are too excited.
    Not relevant, but I see you are not refuting anything I said. Glad we agree on the relevant issue.
    My views are my views, then there is the Christian view:
    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    Of course the third world dregs are breeding like rabbits.

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    Re: Pope Francis says many powerful people don't want peace because they live off war

    Quote Originally Posted by prometeus View Post
    Not relevant, but I see you are not refuting anything I said. Glad we agree on the relevant issue.
    True. I stopped reading, where you started calling names.

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    Re: Pope Francis says many powerful people don't want peace because they live off war

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    The RC church has profited more from war then any other institution in history. The Vatican catacombs are filled with untold riches from such campaigns.

    The church brought us pogroms against the Jews and the first Jewish ghettos, crusades and inquisitions killing millions, and even to this day the church obstructs useful policy that helps people.

    Thanks for stating the obvious pope but it doesn't make you separate from the problem. The Vatican is an institution of violence and always will be.
    Almost literally none of this is actually true.

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    Re: Pope Francis says many powerful people don't want peace because they live off war

    Unfortunately, war appears to be natural to humans. I'm not aware of a worldwide protracted period of peace in history. Enriching oneself appears to be natural to humans as well. The Holy Father is truly describing natural human behavior. Perhaps he will pray for us. Chastising us won't help much.

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    Re: Pope Francis says many powerful people don't want peace because they live off war

    Quote Originally Posted by fmw View Post
    Unfortunately, war appears to be natural to humans. I'm not aware of a worldwide protracted period of peace in history. Enriching oneself appears to be natural to humans as well. The Holy Father is truly describing natural human behavior. Perhaps he will pray for us. Chastising us won't help much.
    Oh I'm sure he's doing both.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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