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Thread: Bernie Sanders challenges Hillary Clinton on trade deal and Iraq war

  1. #21
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    Re: Bernie Sanders challenges Hillary Clinton on trade deal and Iraq war

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    you object to Bernie's failure to point out the flawed language of the proposed TPP
    but i suspect you are aware that it would be illegal for Sanders to reveal any specific language because the terms have been cloaked
    that is why Elizabeth Warren has chided the president on this matter - urging him to allow the proposed language to be revealed for the public to see for itself what would be entailed
    we have not heard hillary make such a proposal, and i assume she is fine with keeping this matter secret from the public until after the treaty has been accepted
    so, yes, this is one of the many instances where hillary's position can be clearly discerned as being vastly different from Bernie's
    There is no final language right now, because there is no agreement at present. When there is final language, which will come before the Congress, then there will be an appropriate opportunity to critique the agreement. No agreement exists right now and it is not assured that the negotiations will actually reach agreement.

    The issue at present is whether Congress should adopt fast track authority, which allows for debate on a possible agreement, but curbs amendments to the agreement. That's an entirely different matter than the TPP itself, as the TPP itself is not under consideration by Congress at present.

    Sanders, however stated that he opposes the TPP. Therefore, I would expect him to explain what exactly he opposes. He hasn't done so. Given his past votes against all the major trade agreements that came before the House and Senate during his tenure, it appears that his objection may well stem from opposition to trade liberalization in general. If so, that perspective will differentiate him from Clinton, but probably won't allow him to materially broaden his base of support. Were he objecting to a clearly flawed agreement, that might be a different matter.

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    Re: Bernie Sanders challenges Hillary Clinton on trade deal and Iraq war

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    There is no final language right now, because there is no agreement at present. When there is final language, which will come before the Congress, then there will be an appropriate opportunity to critique the agreement. No agreement exists right now and it is not assured that the negotiations will actually reach agreement.

    The issue at present is whether Congress should adopt fast track authority, which allows for debate on a possible agreement, but curbs amendments to the agreement. That's an entirely different matter than the TPP itself, as the TPP itself is not under consideration by Congress at present.

    Sanders, however stated that he opposes the TPP. Therefore, I would expect him to explain what exactly he opposes. He hasn't done so. Given his past votes against all the major trade agreements that came before the House and Senate during his tenure, it appears that his objection may well stem from opposition to trade liberalization in general. If so, that perspective will differentiate him from Clinton, but probably won't allow him to materially broaden his base of support. Were he objecting to a clearly flawed agreement, that might be a different matter.
    [above emphasis added by bubba]

    here you go, don; read this
    and please pay special attention to item 8, which has been forcefully addressed by Liz Warren as undermining the mechanisms now in place to prevent the financial corporations from again undermining the world's economy:

    http://www.sanders.senate.gov/downlo...ed?inline=file
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    Re: Bernie Sanders challenges Hillary Clinton on trade deal and Iraq war

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    There is no final language right now, because there is no agreement at present. When there is final language, which will come before the Congress, then there will be an appropriate opportunity to critique the agreement. No agreement exists right now and it is not assured that the negotiations will actually reach agreement.

    The issue at present is whether Congress should adopt fast track authority, which allows for debate on a possible agreement, but curbs amendments to the agreement. That's an entirely different matter than the TPP itself, as the TPP itself is not under consideration by Congress at present.

    Sanders, however stated that he opposes the TPP. Therefore, I would expect him to explain what exactly he opposes. He hasn't done so. Given his past votes against all the major trade agreements that came before the House and Senate during his tenure, it appears that his objection may well stem from opposition to trade liberalization in general. If so, that perspective will differentiate him from Clinton, but probably won't allow him to materially broaden his base of support. Were he objecting to a clearly flawed agreement, that might be a different matter.
    28 advisory committees composed 85% of corporate executives and industry lobbyists is hugely problematic. People like Sherrod Brown, Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders have access to and have read the draft and are privy to its elements as it develops but cannot disclose details to the public at this time. I smell rotten fish when a Republican Party that doesn't believe Obama when he tells them what time it is, suddenly has the confidence to give him fast tract authority on this, while democrats stand largely opposed. I say, not so fast!!
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Bernie Sanders challenges Hillary Clinton on trade deal and Iraq war

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Check into him, there's more than that that you would like.
    I looked him up at ontheissues. THere is only a handful of stuff I agree with him on.

    Bernie Sanders on the Issues
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Bernie Sanders challenges Hillary Clinton on trade deal and Iraq war

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I looked him up at ontheissues. THere is only a handful of stuff I agree with him on.

    Bernie Sanders on the Issues
    Ok, that's better than disagreeing with him on everything like you do Clinton!
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Bernie Sanders challenges Hillary Clinton on trade deal and Iraq war

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Ah... yeah... okay... guy with "Chomsky" for a name. :P
    Hah!

    Thanks.

    171 posts, and it appears you're the first to make the connection (to the point of remark).

    But you're right, I believe Naom does consider his ideology as 'libertarian-socialist', whereas I stop a bit short at 'libertarian-left'.

    He's also been described as 'anarchist', which is probably fair, since I've always heard: "A libertarian is someone who doesn't have the guts to be an anarchist"!
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    Re: Bernie Sanders challenges Hillary Clinton on trade deal and Iraq war

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    [above emphasis added by bubba]

    here you go, don; read this
    and please pay special attention to item 8, which has been forcefully addressed by Liz Warren as undermining the mechanisms now in place to prevent the financial corporations from again undermining the world's economy:

    http://www.sanders.senate.gov/downlo...ed?inline=file
    With respect to the linked document:

    The document states that the “Trans-Pacific Partnership is a disastrous trade agreement…” As noted previously, no agreement has been reached at this point in time. There currently is no Trans-Pacific Partnership.

    The document notes, “The TPP is a treaty that has been written behind closed doors by the corporate world.” Aside from the fact that the text of the agreement is being negotiated, if he wants to express concern about corporate input, that’s a process issue. Obviously the myriad parties who could be impacted will have input. That includes companies, as well as interest groups.

    The document slams recent trade agreements, as would be expected given that Senator Sanders has voted against all of the major agreements that came before the House and Senate during his political tenure. I suspect that the underlying issue is opposition to trade liberalization, not any specific agreement.

    While there is little doubt that some U.S. sectors or industries benefit from trade liberalization and others are harmed, that’s largely a function of comparative advantages. The U.S. is not world-class in every sector or industry. The economic literature contains no examples of a country that had comparative advantages in all industries and sectors at any point in time since economies have been examined. The better test is whether a country is better off as a whole or worse off as a whole from trade agreements.

    When it comes to NAFTA for example, the U.S. enjoyed neutral to modest net benefits. From the NBER:

    We find that Mexico's welfare increases by 1.31%, U.S.'s welfare increases by 0.08%, and Canada's welfare declines by 0.06%. We find that intra-bloc trade increases by 118% for Mexico, 11% for Canada and 41% for the U.S. W ( Estimates of the Trade and Welfare Effects of NAFTA).

    A recent NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll conducted between April 26-30, 2015 showed American public opinion reflects the empirical data concerning NAFTA. In that poll, 29% said that NAFTA had a positive impact, 26% a negative impact, and 32% not much of an impact. On the broader issue of whether trade liberalization has helped or hurt the U.S., 37% of respondents said it helped, 31% said it hurt, and 25% said it had not made much of a difference.

    The document states, “If TPP was such a good deal for America, the administration should have the courage to show the American people exactly what is in this deal, instead of keeping the content of the TPP a secret.” As noted previously, there is no agreement yet. Negotiations remain underway. Some general principles have been discussed. Once there is an agreement, it will go before the Congress and the legislation containing the deal will be made public.

    With respect to the 8th point, there’s a big difference from barring capital controls during normal circumstances and during all circumstances. Even on that point, the evidence that such controls are effective during foreign currency runs is somewhat mixed, though there have been some successes e.g., Malaysia during the Asian Financial Crisis. As the agreement has not been concluded and there is no available language on that issue, there’s not much I can say other than that one will need to wait until an agreement occurs and the language is released. But in principle, barring such controls during normal circumstances would not be bad practice. Barring them during crises would reduce some flexibility of states to respond to such crises.

    In the end, Sanders has taken a notably different position on trade policy and trade liberalization that Clinton appears to hold.

  8. #28
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    Re: Bernie Sanders challenges Hillary Clinton on trade deal and Iraq war

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    With respect to the linked document:

    The document states that the “Trans-Pacific Partnership is a disastrous trade agreement…” As noted previously, no agreement has been reached at this point in time. There currently is no Trans-Pacific Partnership.

    The document notes, “The TPP is a treaty that has been written behind closed doors by the corporate world.” Aside from the fact that the text of the agreement is being negotiated, if he wants to express concern about corporate input, that’s a process issue. Obviously the myriad parties who could be impacted will have input. That includes companies, as well as interest groups.

    The document slams recent trade agreements, as would be expected given that Senator Sanders has voted against all of the major agreements that came before the House and Senate during his political tenure. I suspect that the underlying issue is opposition to trade liberalization, not any specific agreement.

    While there is little doubt that some U.S. sectors or industries benefit from trade liberalization and others are harmed, that’s largely a function of comparative advantages. The U.S. is not world-class in every sector or industry. The economic literature contains no examples of a country that had comparative advantages in all industries and sectors at any point in time since economies have been examined. The better test is whether a country is better off as a whole or worse off as a whole from trade agreements.

    When it comes to NAFTA for example, the U.S. enjoyed neutral to modest net benefits. From the NBER:

    We find that Mexico's welfare increases by 1.31%, U.S.'s welfare increases by 0.08%, and Canada's welfare declines by 0.06%. We find that intra-bloc trade increases by 118% for Mexico, 11% for Canada and 41% for the U.S. W ( Estimates of the Trade and Welfare Effects of NAFTA).

    A recent NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll conducted between April 26-30, 2015 showed American public opinion reflects the empirical data concerning NAFTA. In that poll, 29% said that NAFTA had a positive impact, 26% a negative impact, and 32% not much of an impact. On the broader issue of whether trade liberalization has helped or hurt the U.S., 37% of respondents said it helped, 31% said it hurt, and 25% said it had not made much of a difference.

    The document states, “If TPP was such a good deal for America, the administration should have the courage to show the American people exactly what is in this deal, instead of keeping the content of the TPP a secret.” As noted previously, there is no agreement yet. Negotiations remain underway. Some general principles have been discussed. Once there is an agreement, it will go before the Congress and the legislation containing the deal will be made public.

    With respect to the 8th point, there’s a big difference from barring capital controls during normal circumstances and during all circumstances. Even on that point, the evidence that such controls are effective during foreign currency runs is somewhat mixed, though there have been some successes e.g., Malaysia during the Asian Financial Crisis. As the agreement has not been concluded and there is no available language on that issue, there’s not much I can say other than that one will need to wait until an agreement occurs and the language is released. But in principle, barring such controls during normal circumstances would not be bad practice. Barring them during crises would reduce some flexibility of states to respond to such crises.

    In the end, Sanders has taken a notably different position on trade policy and trade liberalization that Clinton appears to hold.
    Come on Don, you tend to be a straight shooter. 85% of the folks comprising the 28 negotiating committees are corporate executives and industry lobbyists! Furthermore, republicans "trust" Obama on nothing, NOTHING!!! Yet suddenly they're prepared to give him "decider" powers when it comes to this trade deal. Its very confusing to me that you don't smell the rotten fish that so many others do. Furthermore, you keep pointing out that there is no deal, yet. Why then are you so supportive of a deal that hasn't even been made?
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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