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Thread: Bernie Sanders challenges Hillary Clinton on trade deal and Iraq war

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    Re: Bernie Sanders challenges Hillary Clinton on trade deal and Iraq war

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    For one thing, it would seem to me a socialist would realize that welfare makes capitalism appear more equatable and thus actually strengthens its support. For another, it falls into reason that socialists would support mutual aid and reshaping ownership and management of the private sector. There is also the fact that Karl Marx himself was opposed to welfare and said it would dissuade the working class away from socialism.
    I didnt realize Bernie Sanders was a Marxist....
    Just a democratic-socialist in the heartland of America.CHECK OUT MY TUMBLR(BLOG)HERE "Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression, and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

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    Re: Bernie Sanders challenges Hillary Clinton on trade deal and Iraq war

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    I didnt realize Bernie Sanders was a Marxist....
    As if he's not influenced by Karl Marx.

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    Re: Bernie Sanders challenges Hillary Clinton on trade deal and Iraq war

    I don't agree with Bernie on everything, though I do agree with him on a lot. But I do like that he doesn't sidestep questions and give the typical nonanswers politicians give. I could say the same about Ron Paul as well (not so much his son). I like it when a candidate says straight out what they believe regardless of whether it will be popular or not.

    Right now, of all the major party candidates out there, Bernie is the only one that I believe what I see is what I get. The rest, well, I don't buy what they are selling. You are just taking a gamble that the candidate you vote for is the President you will get.

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    Re: Bernie Sanders challenges Hillary Clinton on trade deal and Iraq war

    part 1 of 2 parts

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Sanders is reaching.

    1. On TPP, he has offered no alternatives.
    no don, on this, you are the one found reaching
    like Elizabeth Warren, Bernie has come out strong in his vocal opposition to TPP. he sees it as yet another instance where free trade is NOT found to be fair trade, such that big business realizes a bonanza and the working guy gets more international competition, holding wage rates down
    his alternative is the status quo; NOT allowing our lucrative domestic market to be further exploited by foreign based companies that do not have to deal with the labor, OSHA, EPA, and collective bargaining aspects of business that our nation's business community does
    NAFTA happened on bill's watch. who here truly believes hillary will act in a way different than her husband on this matter

    If his position is that the U.S. should simply refrain from liberalizing trade, that should be a non-starter IMO.
    straw man. share with us exactly what constitutes "liberalizing trade" under this SECRET proposed trade agreement. one supported - and partially written - by the US chamber of commerce

    [quote]It would imply nothing less than a recognition that the U.S. is at a comparative disadvantage vis--vis other trading partners and, worse, has no capacity to become competitive./quote]
    there are some industries in which we do face a comparative disadvantage. now share with us precisely what about the impact of the TPP will end that existing comparative disadvantage

    That would be a very bleak outlook. It would also be a flawed one, as the U.S. actually has many world-class sectors.
    yes, we do
    and since no one else implied that the USA suffers a comprehensive comparative disadvantage, this is yet another straw man you have constructed to argue against

    2. The position on the Iraq War probably won't have a large impact, as Clinton has stated that she erred.

    Hillary Clinton on Iraq vote: I still got it wrong. Plain and simple. - The Washington Post
    then tell us, why would we now expect her to exercise better decision making on similar huge matters of national importance going forward

    If Sanders wants to gain traction on Clinton's judgment, he will need to find numerous examples that are sufficiently compelling that the Democratic Party primary voters will conclude that her judgment is bad.
    i would encourage him to instead point to her record of accomplishments
    she stands for nothing. and her record proves it

    3. The Keystone Pipeline is not a litmus test as to whether one supports a public policy response to climate change. Clinton is decisively on record as supporting such a response, so there's no difference between the two of them on that issue.

    This one Hillary quote about climate change is very, very important - The Washington Post
    you are quite wrong, don:
    As Secretary of State, Clinton said she was inclined to sign-off on the pipeline, which would carry emissions-heavy oil sands from Alberta to US Gulf Coast refineries.
    Hillary Clinton has a Keystone XL problem (+video) - CSMonitor.com

    there is no reason why her thumbs up as secretary of state would not become a thumbs down as president regarding the keystone pipeline
    Sanders and hillary are poles apart on this issue
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
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    Re: Bernie Sanders challenges Hillary Clinton on trade deal and Iraq war

    part 2 of 2 parts

    4. Clinton opposes the Citizens United decision and has indicated that she might support a constitutional amendment to overturn it.
    yes she has
    in comparison, Sanders has said THIS is the question that would be a litmus test for any supreme court appointee he would advance
    meanwhile, hillary is holding her wet finger in the wind of public opinion, trying to divine where she should be on this question

    Hillary Clinton: 'I would consider' anti-Citizens United amendment | MSNBC

    All said, Sanders will need to differentiate himself from Clinton on more than ideology if he is to have a chance.
    once more, i strongly disagree with you
    that they have very different ideologies is where we should be looking when making our voting decision. which of the two is going to advance our nation and its citizens' interests better than the other

    Specifically, I'm referring to policy substance. On the above issues, the only meaningful difference concerns trade policy, but he has yet to spell out the details of his alternative approach, so aside from perhaps intensifying support among his natural progressive constituency, it's not clear that he would gain much additional support on that position.
    his alternative approach is NOT to authorize the anti-employee TPP!
    Obama will not authorize the disclosure of the proposed language
    if it is so beneficial to the man on the street, why can't we review that language

    Bernie voted AGAINST the war in iraq. a huge difference

    hillary supported keystone as secstate. Bernie opposes it

    Bernie is adamantly opposed the the current campaign financing laws yet look how his campaign is funded versus hillary's:
    One Chart Shows the Biggest Difference Between Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton - Mic

    and here are the five massive differences between Bernie and hillary:

    - Money: Sanders attacks the rich; Clinton wants to raise money from them

    - Trade: Sanders is extremely skeptical of new agreements, while Clinton has waffled

    - Foreign policy: Clinton is more of a hawk than Sanders and most other Democrats

    - Health reform: Sanders wants single-payer

    - Spending: Sanders wants big spending

    The 5 biggest policy differences between Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton - Vox


    by no means are these SMALL differences

    Sanders - again like Warren - wants college educations and jobs training to be more affordable/accessible to our kids. where is hillary on this. probably shaking her head, saying "me too", but never coming out ad leading the charge on such major - such vital, national issues


    Of course, the campaign is in its early stages, but successful differentiation will be key to his prospects in the Democratic Party's nominating process.
    as i pointed out above, the differences between them are massive
    and then there is the trust issue. of the two, who do you think is speaking frank to us
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Why confuse things with facts?
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    Re: Bernie Sanders challenges Hillary Clinton on trade deal and Iraq war

    If this guy's a Socialist, I want to hear more Socialism!

    (never thought I'd say that)
    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

    The 10 Commandments of Logic - (Courtesy of Abbazorkzog Blog)

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    Re: Bernie Sanders challenges Hillary Clinton on trade deal and Iraq war

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    If this guy's a Socialist, I want to hear more Socialism!

    (never thought I'd say that)
    Ah... yeah... okay... guy with "Chomsky" for a name. :P
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Bernie Sanders challenges Hillary Clinton on trade deal and Iraq war

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    part 1 of 2 parts


    no don, on this, you are the one found reaching
    like Elizabeth Warren, Bernie has come out strong in his vocal opposition to TPP. he sees it as yet another instance where free trade is NOT found to be fair trade, such that big business realizes a bonanza and the working guy gets more international competition, holding wage rates down
    his alternative is the status quo; NOT allowing our lucrative domestic market to be further exploited by foreign based companies that do not have to deal with the labor, OSHA, EPA, and collective bargaining aspects of business that our nation's business community does
    NAFTA happened on bill's watch. who here truly believes hillary will act in a way different than her husband on this matter
    To what specific terms is Senator Sanders objecting?

    The reality is that the possible trade agreement is being negotiated. There are no terms. He's firing away before there's any agreement (as was Senator Warren--in Warren's case, she was speculating on a specific impact vis--vis the Dodd-Frank Act, even as the terms of a possible TPP agreement are being negotiated and are not available beyond the negotiators; not surprisingly, President Obama rebutted her speculation.). As there's no agreement and no terms available, he's more than likely attacking the principle of trade liberalization itself.

    I don't doubt that there will be some sectors in which the U.S. "loses" from a TPP, but there will be others in which it "wins." That's the nature of comparative advantages, but as long as all the parties are better off in the long-run than would be the case in the absence of a trade agreement, then the trade agreement would be a good thing. Moreover, there's nothing that would preclude the U.S. from offering transitional assistance e.g., funding for training/education, etc., to workers in adversely affected sectors.

    But right now, there is no TPP agreement, so my comments concern trade liberalization in general. We'll see what the terms of such an agreement are if or when it is reached. In the meantime, Sanders is already opposing an agreement that does not yet exist. Given his record in the Senate, his opposition likely concerns trade liberalization in general, not specific trade agreements. He opposed NAFTA, GATT, the WTO, etc. I'm not aware of a single major trade agreement that he supported during his political tenure.

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    Re: Bernie Sanders challenges Hillary Clinton on trade deal and Iraq war

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    To what specific terms is Senator Sanders objecting?

    The reality is that the possible trade agreement is being negotiated. There are no terms. He's firing away before there's any agreement (as was Senator Warren--in Warren's case, she was speculating on a specific impact vis--vis the Dodd-Frank Act, even as the terms of a possible TPP agreement are being negotiated and are not available beyond the negotiators; not surprisingly, President Obama rebutted her speculation.). As there's no agreement and no terms available, he's more than likely attacking the principle of trade liberalization itself.

    I don't doubt that there will be some sectors in which the U.S. "loses" from a TPP, but there will be others in which it "wins." That's the nature of comparative advantages, but as long as all the parties are better off in the long-run than would be the case in the absence of a trade agreement, then the trade agreement would be a good thing. Moreover, there's nothing that would preclude the U.S. from offering transitional assistance e.g., funding for training/education, etc., to workers in adversely affected sectors.

    But right now, there is no TPP agreement, so my comments concern trade liberalization in general. We'll see what the terms of such an agreement are if or when it is reached. In the meantime, Sanders is already opposing an agreement that does not yet exist. Given his record in the Senate, his opposition likely concerns trade liberalization in general, not specific trade agreements. He opposed NAFTA, GATT, the WTO, etc. I'm not aware of a single major trade agreement that he supported during his political tenure.
    you object to Bernie's failure to point out the flawed language of the proposed TPP
    but i suspect you are aware that it would be illegal for Sanders to reveal any specific language because the terms have been cloaked
    that is why Elizabeth Warren has chided the president on this matter - urging him to allow the proposed language to be revealed for the public to see for itself what would be entailed
    we have not heard hillary make such a proposal, and i assume she is fine with keeping this matter secret from the public until after the treaty has been accepted
    so, yes, this is one of the many instances where hillary's position can be clearly discerned as being vastly different from Bernie's
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Why confuse things with facts?
    I like Ted Cruz more than most of my other colleagues like Ted Cruz. And I hate Ted Cruz. ~ Senator Al Franken

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    Re: Bernie Sanders challenges Hillary Clinton on trade deal and Iraq war

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    you object to Bernie's failure to point out the flawed language of the proposed TPP
    but i suspect you are aware that it would be illegal for Sanders to reveal any specific language because the terms have been cloaked
    that is why Elizabeth Warren has chided the president on this matter - urging him to allow the proposed language to be revealed for the public to see for itself what would be entailed
    we have not heard hillary make such a proposal, and i assume she is fine with keeping this matter secret from the public until after the treaty has been accepted
    so, yes, this is one of the many instances where hillary's position can be clearly discerned as being vastly different from Bernie's
    Totally agree, and people need to understand that Hillary is no progressive liberal.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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