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Cuba gay pride calls for same-sex marriage to become legal

I don't really have much respect for dictatorships who get something right once in a while. The USA has strong democratic principles based on a respected constitution and is a federation of hundreds of million of people. I am not at all surprised the process is longer, and I'm thankful decisions like this don't come down by decree from the "elite".

Decisions that rectify injustice and discrimination should be welcomed wherever they occur. If your May 22nd referendum rejects gay marriage, am I to congratulate Ireland on its democratic process? What comfort is it to oppressed minorities to learn that at least the discrimination being heaped on them is democratically arrived at?
 
Your posting history gives you away I'm afraid, JoG.

Only in your dreams do my posts constitute homophobia, though, I did not really enjoy homosexual or bisexual sex. But I do understand that people would rather simplify than try to understand, what is actually being said. This is all the more the case, when they realize their arguments are rather threadbare.
 
I sincerely hope so, although there does seem to be a very strong current of opinion amongst large swathes of your population that seems either happy to see your human rights record deteriorate, or are in complete denial that any such thing is taking place. I'm not sure what it would take to see the situation turned around.

Irrespective of the gay rights issue it is surely the ultimate conundrum that the so called land of the free is in actuality the land of the incarcerated. Apparently only the tiny Seychelles is worse

20121015_prison.jpg
 
Only in your dreams do my posts constitute homophobia, though, I did not really enjoy homosexual or bisexual sex. But I do understand that people would rather simplify than try to understand, what is actually being said. This is all the more the case, when they realize their arguments are rather threadbare.

A small sample will help clarify:
The gays have overplayed their had with revolting triumphalism and gleeful intrusions on the existential and fundamental Constitutional rights of others. That has lost them a lot of sympathy and has now pushed the whole discussion in a more encompassing light that shows the gay arguments to be threadbare and at best barely tenable if at all.

What ssm does affect is your wallet. Were you of such a religion, it would also make you an accessory in the condemning activities of the sinfully consenting adults.

Telling a child that single parents exist is quite different from telling them that it is a good way to go.

Teaching them that it is ethically okay is not the same thing, as it is contrary to central religious morals. That would be fine in a private institution. For the government to do so against the will of the parents is as unconstitutional as saying it is crime against God and perpetrators should burn for infinity.

Are Muslim gays as much offensively demanding and triumphalist as our SSM lobbyists?
 
A small sample will help clarify:

And, if you were to read, what those quotes say, you would find that it is not homosexuality I criticize. But that might be too demanding of you as isit equines more than one dimensional thinking in a fifty years old rut.
 
And, if you were to read, what those quotes say, you would find that it is not homosexuality I criticize. But that might be too demanding of you as isit equines more than one dimensional thinking in a fifty years old rut.

isit equines? We having a senior moment, JoG? :)

It's definitely not horse, btw.
 
isit equines? We having a senior moment, JoG? :)

It's definitely not horse, btw.

I dunno.
I've see the size of some of them there gay dildos, and the word "horse" definitely comes to mind. :2razz:
 
isit equines? We having a senior moment, JoG? :)

It's definitely not horse, btw.

I admit that this mobile does auto correct to odd words. I guess I will have to pay more attention before hitting return.

PS: But your answer shows quite nicely, that you are stuck in the rut and have a problem understanding the matter at hand.
 
I admit that this mobile does auto correct to odd words. I guess I will have to pay more attention before hitting return.

PS: But your answer shows quite nicely, that you are stuck in the rut and have a problem understanding the matter at hand.

I think he understands it full well. In fact he's walked a mile in gay shoes, so not only does he understands first-hand, he's doing so looking rather fabulous.
You have zero clue what it's like living in a world that treats you as a lesser, so you should reserve your judgement.
 
I think he understands it full well. In fact he's walked a mile in gay shoes, so not only does he understands first-hand, he's doing so looking rather fabulous.
You have zero clue what it's like living in a world that treats you as a lesser, so you should reserve your judgement.

I feel for him that he is traumatized and it is sad that you think he thinks the way he does, because he is still dealing with it. But that does not make the position he portraits better.
 
I think he understands it full well. In fact he's walked a mile in gay shoes, so not only does he understands first-hand, he's doing so looking rather fabulous.
You have zero clue what it's like living in a world that treats you as a lesser, so you should reserve your judgement.

I feel for him that he is traumatized and it is sad that you think he thinks the way he does, because he is still dealing with it. But that does not make the position he portraits better.

You think I'm traumatised by being gay? :lamo I'm more traumatised by needing two different pairs of spectacles. You seem more traumatised by the prospect of having to use the words, husband and husband/wife and wife in your everyday discourse. Poor you! I could recommend a good therapist, there are lots to choose from since sexual orientation isn't anywhere near as psychologically traumatising as it used to be. Poor loves are scrabbling for work. Your neuroses would be money in the bank for them.

Middleground get's it. JoG doesn't. Two heterosexual women, not that great an age difference but one with a simple understanding that accepting change and difference isn't necessarily a threat to anyone, the other feeling threatened and undermined at every turn. One understands that the personal is political, the other deluded enough to believe that conformity has great value.

MG is awarded the Pink Heart for services to fabulosity. JoG receives the Anita Bryant Memorial Tranquiliser.
 
You think I'm traumatised by being gay? :lamo I'm more traumatised by needing two different pairs of spectacles. You seem more traumatised by the prospect of having to use the words, husband and husband/wife and wife in your everyday discourse. Poor you! I could recommend a good therapist, there are lots to choose from since sexual orientation isn't anywhere near as psychologically traumatising as it used to be. Poor loves are scrabbling for work. Your neuroses would be money in the bank for them.

Middleground get's it. JoG doesn't. Two heterosexual women, not that great an age difference but one with a simple understanding that accepting change and difference isn't necessarily a threat to anyone, the other feeling threatened and undermined at every turn. One understands that the personal is political, the other deluded enough to believe that conformity has great value.

MG is awarded the Pink Heart for services to fabulosity. JoG receives the Anita Bryant Memorial Tranquiliser.

That is what Middleground seemed to be implying. For it is immaterial that you be gay or not to the objective argument. But what his information said is that your judgment of the facts is dominated by your having had such a hard time as a homosexual. That would have fit and explained why your opinion is so biased on this point, where otherwise you seem to have quite balanced views.
 
That would have fit and explained why your opinion is so biased on this point, where otherwise you seem to have quite balanced views.

You see, that just about sums up my thoughts on you. I wonder what kind of trauma you've suffered at the hands of LGBT people that makes you so obsessed with the matter, despite it not really having much bearing on your life as an elderly, heterosexual lady. In other threads, on other topics, you appear to be quite sane and rational. The fact that you appear to post in the sex and sexuality forum far more than I do (652 vs. 423 posts) suggests you have a bit of a hang-up on the subject.
 
Decisions that rectify injustice and discrimination should be welcomed wherever they occur. If your May 22nd referendum rejects gay marriage, am I to congratulate Ireland on its democratic process? What comfort is it to oppressed minorities to learn that at least the discrimination being heaped on them is democratically arrived at?

You're not just "welcoming" it, you're using it as a stick to be beat the US down with - even though gay marriage is legal in more US states than European ones.

And yes, democratic acceptance of gay equality is far more meaningful though not necessary for it to be the correct decision. It actually reflects that society has accepted their minorities, not just a powerful few - which has implication beyond the one issue, Cuba is reflective of that.

EDIT: Also, I believe the legislation being proposed in Cuba is for civil unions, not gay marriage (same same but different). That's passé by western standards.
 
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That is what Middleground seemed to be implying. For it is immaterial that you be gay or not to the objective argument. But what his information said is that your judgment of the facts is dominated by your having had such a hard time as a homosexual. That would have fit and explained why your opinion is so biased on this point, where otherwise you seem to have quite balanced views.


Ahhhhhh, no. Andy Pandy is no pansy. I am sure that he has--at times in his life--had to deal with not being treated fairly, been made fun of and/or harassed because of his sexual orientation. How do I know? Because he's about my age and my generation has not exactly been 'queer friendly.' Having said that, Andy is no worse for wear and it seems that he is very comfortable in his own skin.

Fortunately, through education and enlightenment, we, as a society have thankfully progressed. If you want to be one of those closed-minded individuals that will be extinct like dinosaurs in the near future, that is your prerogative. But it's only going to make you look foolish.
 
Not embarrassed at all. Demographically, I'm not sure how significant the gay portion of society is. They are noisy that's for sure.

Why does that matter?
 
Ahhhhhh, no. Andy Pandy is no pansy. I am sure that he has--at times in his life--had to deal with not being treated fairly, been made fun of and/or harassed because of his sexual orientation. How do I know? Because he's about my age and my generation has not exactly been 'queer friendly.' Having said that, Andy is no worse for wear and it seems that he is very comfortable in his own skin.

Fortunately, through education and enlightenment, we, as a society have thankfully progressed. If you want to be one of those closed-minded individuals that will be extinct like dinosaurs in the near future, that is your prerogative. But it's only going to make you look foolish.

Thanks MG! All you say is true. Growing up in the Sixties and Seventies and starting out in adult life in the Eighties - the Dark Ages of modern British history - I certainly came up against homophobia, my own included, and seem to have emerged on the other side pretty happy with life. A bit of struggle is the making of anyone.

You're also correct to say that the world is a very different place for LGBT people, in the West at least, than it was 30+ years ago. Thank God/Allah/Yahweh! Our societies have progressed enormously, but that progress didn't happen by chance, or through the munificence of the rulers. It has been progress that has taken a lot of work and sacrifice on the part of a lot of committed and really pissed-off LGBT people and their straight supporters.

There will always be the dinosaurs who resent every gain we make. Who take every pride parade as a personal affront, every legal adjustment as an attack on their privilege. That's inevitable, but we are winning. The proof of that I experience every day living as an out gay man in a tiny, traditional, farming village in an undeveloped corner of Europe where once upon I time I might have been run out of town, regularly assaulted or at the very least shunned by my neighbours. It's testament to the success of our struggle and the innate goodness of all people that the recognition that we don't all have to be a cipher of one particular model of humanity has come to be the predominant mind-set. Hurrah!

JoG seems to be of an age, mind-set and ideology that rejects these changes. That's sad for her, not for me!
 
You're not just "welcoming" it, you're using it as a stick to be beat the US down with - even though gay marriage is legal in more US states than European ones.
Okay, you got me! I wasn't attacking the US in general, just those parts of it that are virulently anti-Cuban, and resistently anti-gay, but you're right I let my rhetoric overwhelm my reason. It's a fair cop.
 
Thanks MG! All you say is true. Growing up in the Sixties and Seventies and starting out in adult life in the Eighties - the Dark Ages of modern British history - I certainly came up against homophobia, my own included, and seem to have emerged on the other side pretty happy with life. A bit of struggle is the making of anyone.

You're also correct to say that the world is a very different place for LGBT people, in the West at least, than it was 30+ years ago. Thank God/Allah/Yahweh! Our societies have progressed enormously, but that progress didn't happen by chance, or through the munificence of the rulers. It has been progress that has taken a lot of work and sacrifice on the part of a lot of committed and really pissed-off LGBT people and their straight supporters.

There will always be the dinosaurs who resent every gain we make. Who take every pride parade as a personal affront, every legal adjustment as an attack on their privilege. That's inevitable, but we are winning. The proof of that I experience every day living as an out gay man in a tiny, traditional, farming village in an undeveloped corner of Europe where once upon I time I might have been run out of town, regularly assaulted or at the very least shunned by my neighbours. It's testament to the success of our struggle and the innate goodness of all people that the recognition that we don't all have to be a cipher of one particular model of humanity has come to be the predominant mind-set. Hurrah!

JoG seems to be of an age, mind-set and ideology that rejects these changes. That's sad for her, not for me!


I wish I could thank this ten million times.

There will always be the dinosaurs who resent every gain we make. Who take every pride parade as a personal affront, every legal adjustment as an attack on their privilege.

I know. Some here at DP think the Pride Parades happen because:
1) Gays are so freakin flamboyant. They should just keep to themselves!
2) Gays are so in your face they want to display their gayness to us!
3) Gays have the parade so they can change orientation of innocent people!

:roll: :roll: :roll:

It does not take an Einstein to deduce that the parades started as a way of healing. They started as a way of accepting, including personal acceptance. They started as a way to show pride and to help others--including straight family and friends--who need to.
 
Ahhhhhh, no. Andy Pandy is no pansy. I am sure that he has--at times in his life--had to deal with not being treated fairly, been made fun of and/or harassed because of his sexual orientation. How do I know? Because he's about my age and my generation has not exactly been 'queer friendly.' Having said that, Andy is no worse for wear and it seems that he is very comfortable in his own skin.

Fortunately, through education and enlightenment, we, as a society have thankfully progressed. If you want to be one of those closed-minded individuals that will be extinct like dinosaurs in the near future, that is your prerogative. But it's only going to make you look foolish.

I am afraid in all honesty that it is not I that is "closed-minded" and "look(s) foolish". You see, I am quite libertarian and in sexual things have always been and am extremely open, free minded and actively interested. But, you see, when a group of people start restricting the rights of others and using the state to take away Constitutional rights so that they can live their own lust and for spite, as is often obviously the driver in the arguments here, well they become a group that must be stopped. And this is exactly, what the gay rights lobby has done and their behavior is to the opposite of the freedom our society likes to think of itself as symbolizing and viciously against the values that have stood us well as a nation.
You can have sex with anyone you want and their dog, for all I care. But when you want to have money for non reproductive affairs or want the courts to force the religious, which I am not, to participate in activities that they consider vile crime against their God? Nope. That is, what the Inquisition did, bigots all through history have done or Mao or the Nazis. That is an absolute and revolting attitude and must be fought.
 
There seems to be great headway being made in Cuba by LGBT rights activists in promoting equal treatment for the country's long-oppressed sexual minorities. The indefatigable activism of some very brave people, plus a welcome softening and modernising approach from the régime seems to be allowing a lot of progress to happen in a very short time. I wonder whether the great Satan of human rights abusers will pass SSM into nationwide law before the home of the free does.
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Cuba gay pride calls for same-sex marriage to become legal
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How embarrassed would you be if Cuba beat your own home country in its much improved treatment of a significant demographic minority?

Beat my own home country? I didn't realize this was a competition.
 
There was a time when the United States lead the world when it came to human rights. We were the beacon on the hill. Sadly, due primarily to the radical right wing's influence in our political system, a large portion of the world has surpassed us. This would be no different. The US will soon catch up to the rest of the world in terms of freedom and equality.

I think SSM should be legal in the USA because I think any consenting adults has the right to marry whomever he or she wants, and however many of them he or she wants to marry, too. SSM, polygamy, whatever. Marriage is a highly personal decision and no adult should be prevented from it.

That said, what are the other freedoms that the "right wing" has prevented us from exercising, and what other freedoms should the right wing support that will make us "catch up to the rest of the world in terms of freedom and equality"?
 
You see, that just about sums up my thoughts on you. I wonder what kind of trauma you've suffered at the hands of LGBT people that makes you so obsessed with the matter, despite it not really having much bearing on your life as an elderly, heterosexual lady. In other threads, on other topics, you appear to be quite sane and rational. The fact that you appear to post in the sex and sexuality forum far more than I do (652 vs. 423 posts) suggests you have a bit of a hang-up on the subject.

Actually, I had had only good experiences with LGBT people until recently. There are lots of them in the crowd I run with and I participated for a while. For all I care, you can hump your dog. Then their lobby started demanding things that are against the core values of freedom to get other peoples money to support their lifestyles and to get the state to repress religious people and force them to participate or support, what they consider vile crimes against their God. Since then, I still am friendly with the people.

But the movement has overshot and has become an enemy of our basic freedoms. And as the posts are in this forum, it is here, that the mischief is being wrought and must therefore be countered. Because as long as people demand that the rights of others must be limited, so guy like you can feel better, someone must speak up and name the bigots by their name.
 
But, you see, when a group of people start restricting the rights of others and using the state to take away Constitutional rights
Which constitutional rights has the progress of LGBT rights taken away from anyone?

so that they can live their own lust and for spite, as is often obviously the driver in the arguments here, well they become a group that must be stopped. And this is exactly, what the gay rights lobby has done and their behavior is to the opposite of the freedom our society likes to think of itself as symbolizing and viciously against the values that have stood us well as a nation.
What nation are you referring to? Britain? Spain? USA?

You can have sex with anyone you want and their dog, for all I care. But when you want to have money for non reproductive affairs
What payments are these? I must be owed a fortune!

or want the courts to force the religious, which I am not, to participate in activities that they consider vile crime against their God?
No one has ever been forced to participate in homosexuality, as far as I'm aware. Apart from those who attend SM parties, of course.

Nope. That is, what the Inquisition did, bigots all through history have done or Mao or the Nazis. That is an absolute and revolting attitude and must be fought.
I see, so LGBT activists are the equivalent of Nazi Maoists, are they? :roll:
 
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