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Thread: U.S. Unemployment Falls to Lowest Level Since May 2008[W:489, 497]

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    re: U.S. Unemployment Falls to Lowest Level Since May 2008[W:489, 497]

    Quote Originally Posted by mmi View Post
    I was thinking of using that, but I didn't think it offered an unqualified defeat for our opponents.

    Perhaps we can agree that all these lists can be very misleading. Poverty and crime are often not conditions that can legitimately be blamed on a state or local government.
    I agree, and it is weird to me that when I made the same point earlier, you liked austrianecon's non-sequitur response.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumpf
    "I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters."
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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    re: U.S. Unemployment Falls to Lowest Level Since May 2008[W:489, 497]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    It would also be more accurate to say that 'neo-liberal economic policy created those manufacturing jobs in the first place. It was neo-statist policies of the left that drove them into freer, more competitive markets. But I get now why people are liberals--they never have to accept any consequences of their failed ideology.
    You could be more wrong, but this is bad enough. The post-WWII job gains in the US was a matter of domestic demand, a product of large redistribution back into education and R&D from higher marginal rates...which caused greater wage gains for middle class workers. That shifted dramatically in the late 70's with the introduction of neo-liberal policies of low tax/low barrier and union busting. Containerized shipping along with allowing our competitors to sell below cost imports gutted US manufacturing. Cheap imports are great when your paycheck collapses, but it is just a race to the bottom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drumpf
    "I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters."
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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    re: U.S. Unemployment Falls to Lowest Level Since May 2008[W:489, 497]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    You could be more wrong, but this is bad enough. The post-WWII job gains in the US was a matter of domestic demand, a product of large redistribution back into education and R&D from higher marginal rates...which caused greater wage gains for middle class workers. That shifted dramatically in the late 70's with the introduction of neo-liberal policies of low tax/low barrier and union busting. Containerized shipping along with allowing our competitors to sell below cost imports gutted US manufacturing. Cheap imports are great when your paycheck collapses, but it is just a race to the bottom.

    Too bad that graph doesn't back up your point. Wealth redistribution was not the cause of post WWII job gains.

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    re: U.S. Unemployment Falls to Lowest Level Since May 2008[W:489, 497]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    Too bad that graph doesn't back up your point.
    It backs up the fact that post-1979 (start of neo-liberal policy) coincides with the breaking of the wage gain/productivity connection.




    Wealth redistribution was not the cause of post WWII job gains.
    Simple contrarianism is not proof of argument.

    The fact that you did not even begin to counter the correction of your upside down account of "statist v neoliberal policy" says much more than your attention to the graphic.
    Last edited by Gimmesometruth; 05-14-15 at 01:38 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumpf
    "I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters."
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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    re: U.S. Unemployment Falls to Lowest Level Since May 2008[W:489, 497]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    it is weird to me that when I made the same point earlier, you liked austrianecon's non-sequitur response.
    Well, I thought the information about the local economy there was informative. You may be right about the "non-sequitur" label, I'm not sure.

    I live on Narragansett Bay in RI. We have been working hard in recent years to get it cleaned up. Aquaculture is a very promising industry, and of course our strong performance in tourism is tied to getting pollutants out of the water. This effort has brought together D's and R's around here, thank God. It's critically important that we get this done.

    I just reread austrianecon's post. I'm not sure what his policy prescription is (he doesn't seem to like taxes, as you'd expect from his username), but I'm hoping he'd be onboard for cleaning up Chesapeake Bay, another very beautiful and economically important estuary.

    I also liked the fact that loves Baltimore. That type of passion can be very useful in making progress on solving problems and taking advantage of opportunities.
    Last edited by mmi; 05-14-15 at 02:28 PM.

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    re: U.S. Unemployment Falls to Lowest Level Since May 2008[W:489, 497]

    Quote Originally Posted by mmi View Post
    Well, I thought the information about the local economy there was informative. You may be right about the "non-sequitur" label, I'm not sure.

    I live on Narragansett Bay in RI. We have been working hard in recent years to get it cleaned up. Aquaculture is a very promising industry, and of course our strong performance in tourism is tied to getting pollutants out of the water. This effort has brought together D's and R's around here, thank God. It's critically important that we get this done.

    I just reread austrianecon's post. I'm not sure what his policy prescription is (he doesn't seem to like taxes, as you'd expect from his username), but I'm hoping he'd be onboard for cleaning up Chesapeake Bay, another very beautiful and economically important estuary.
    Seriously, you don't understand that a plea to environmentalism was a non-sequitur to my comments on neo-iberal econ policy and the loss manufacturing jobs and wages....especially in light of your:

    Poverty and crime are often not conditions that can legitimately be blamed on a state or local government.

    ?????

    You don't see that his comment (and now your new one) have nearly nothing to do with the point I made?
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumpf
    "I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters."
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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    re: U.S. Unemployment Falls to Lowest Level Since May 2008[W:489, 497]

    Quote Originally Posted by mmi View Post

    I also liked the fact that loves Baltimore. That type of passion can be very useful in making progress on solving problems and taking advantage of opportunities.
    Just to follow up, if you and he are going to make an argument about environment concerns in relation to US job and manufacturing, let me make clear that I am in no manner arguing that manufacturers should get away with polluting, manufacturing can be, and should be, responsible....and that goes to my point, allowing foreign manufacturers to sell products in the US that practice worse than US standards is simply moving the pollution somewhere else along with the employment. The costs of that pollution should be imposed upon those importers to reflect the true cost of manufacturing, instead of again allowing them to gut our employment and weasel out of their responsibility.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumpf
    "I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters."
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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    re: U.S. Unemployment Falls to Lowest Level Since May 2008[W:489, 497]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    I am in no manner arguing that manufacturers should get away with polluting
    I didn't for a second think that you were.

    >>The costs of that pollution should be imposed upon those importers to reflect the true cost of manufacturing

    Complete agreement from me. So we both find cost-shifting of negative externalities unacceptable.

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    re: U.S. Unemployment Falls to Lowest Level Since May 2008[W:489, 497]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Interesting, but you never made a connection between oysters and neo-liberal policy. What this has to do with low taxes/low barriers/low wage gains is beyond me.
    And I am telling you it's not always the "low taxes/low barriers/low wages" are result of "neo-liberal" policy which by the way also spans 3rd way economics which even Bill Clinton, Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and a bunch of PMs in Australia support.

    Rather there are situations in which industries collapse because of overproduction, excess pollution and sometimes naturally it happens (creative destruction). They have just as much as role in the issues at hand. When these industries collapse they put pressure on wages, tax receipts, and bring in low barriers as well. You think Cable TV is gonna survive with the advent of higher broadband which will allow you more ability to watch streaming tv? Absolutely not. People will lose their jobs because of this technology.. just as Oyster and Crab industry in Maryland collapse due to excess pollution and over production.

    There are underlying issues that have to be discussed outside of your "neo-liberal" meme. How do you get people to invest in cities and industries if you have no low tax rate carrot to hang in front of them? How do you get someone or company to make a long term investment in an area if you can't promise them taxes will stay the same during Governorships (Dem or Republican)? How can you say "Hey, invest here but we might raise your taxes despite the fact you pay $15hour and invest millions into environmental clean"?

    Nobody wants to invest in uncertainty, people and companies that invest for the long term and the type of investment that sustains local economies look 30 years out in projecting costs. If the costs don't add up, they aren't gonna invest and they'll take those jobs overseas. That's not gonna change and it's certainly not gonna change with Obama's TPP push.

    You have to start thinking out of box. Long gone are the taxes of protectionist.
    Last edited by austrianecon; 05-14-15 at 08:56 PM.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    re: U.S. Unemployment Falls to Lowest Level Since May 2008[W:489, 497]

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    How do you get people to invest in cities and industries if you have no low tax rate carrot to hang in front of them?
    Perhaps with some sort of federal program, well-tailored to the local situation and designed to as much as possible involve local interests.

    >>That's not gonna change and it's certainly not gonna change with Obama's TPP push.

    You oppose the treaty?

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