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Thread: Pope Francis will send ‘missionaries of mercy’ to absolve women of abortion ‘sin’

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    Re: Pope Francis will send ‘missionaries of mercy’ to absolve women of abortion ‘sin’

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    So are you saying that priests who uphold the seal should be arrested?
    I would agree to letting the confessors off the hook if the church was willing to have an open discussion about pedophilia and arrest the people that did/do it.

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    Re: Pope Francis will send ‘missionaries of mercy’ to absolve women of abortion ‘sin’

    Quote Originally Posted by Anomalism View Post
    I would agree to letting the confessors off the hook if the church was willing to have an open discussion about pedophilia and actively work to resolve the problem and arrest the people that did it.
    Could you explain more specifically what you mean?

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    Re: Pope Francis will send ‘missionaries of mercy’ to absolve women of abortion ‘sin’

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    So you want to imprison Catholic priests for upholding the seal of confession.

    This would have all been a lot simpler if you would have just said clearly that you wanted the Church suppressed.
    Yes. Raping children is illegal, and rightfully so. Covering for child rapists is illegal, and rightfully so. This is what you're defending: child rapists and their defenders.

    I don't care what your religion says, and neither does the law. Just like I and the law don't care if some voodoo religion requires child sacrifice. Well, if you want to do that, then you can go to some backwater third world swamp where people get away with things like that. Not here.

    Religious freedom does not allow you victimize others. Religion does not entitle you to do whatever you want to other human beings, and it does not release you of criminal charges for things you permitted to be done to other human beings.

    There is no reason Catholic officials should be the only exception to that, when every other religion is held to it if they wish to exist in the developed world. Your religion is not special.

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    Re: Pope Francis will send ‘missionaries of mercy’ to absolve women of abortion ‘sin’

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Could you explain more specifically what you mean?
    The church would have to be completely open about the problem and work with authorities to arrest the people that are directly involved in it. This would also have to be a one time deal; any future confessions related to pedophilia would have to be reported. That pushes the limits of my morality, but I can see why somebody that has spent their entire life serving the church would feel compelled to uphold the seal.
    Last edited by Anomalism; 05-07-15 at 05:39 PM.

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    Re: Pope Francis will send ‘missionaries of mercy’ to absolve women of abortion ‘sin’

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Yes. Raping children is illegal, and rightfully so. Covering for child rapists is illegal, and rightfully so. This is what you're defending: child rapists and their defenders.

    I don't care what your religion says, and neither does the law. Just like I and the law don't care if some voodoo religion requires child sacrifice. Well, if you want to do that, then you can go to some backwater third world swamp where people get away with things like that. Not here.

    Religious freedom does not allow you victimize others. Religion does not entitle you to do whatever you want to other human beings, and it does not release you of criminal charges for things you permitted to be done to other human beings.

    There is no reason Catholic officials should be the only exception to that, when every other religion is held to it if they wish to exist in the developed world. Your religion is not special.
    I could point out the numerous factual errors in your post, but I'll refrain. Suffice to say, you'll feel much better when you escape the confused haze of claiming you want people to be free to dissent but also saying that dissenters should be arrested, and simply admit that you don't support a right to dissent from your conception of the truth. It doesn't make you the odd man out. The vast majority of people throughout human history would freely admit that the truth should hold a special legal privilege over error. I'd certainly agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anomalism View Post
    any future confessions related to pedophilia would have to be reported.
    So you also want the Church to be persecuted.

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    Re: Pope Francis will send ‘missionaries of mercy’ to absolve women of abortion ‘sin’

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    So you also want the Church to be persecuted.
    No, I want pedophiles to see justice. If that means a religion has to change some of its rules in the process then so be it. Pedophiles should not have a safe haven, and I'm amazed that you would argue otherwise.

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    Re: Pope Francis will send ‘missionaries of mercy’ to absolve women of abortion ‘sin’

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    I could point out the numerous factual errors in your post, but I'll refrain. Suffice to say, you'll feel much better when you escape the confused haze of claiming you want people to be free to dissent but also saying that dissenters should be arrested, and simply admit that you don't support a right to dissent from your conception of the truth. It doesn't make you the odd man out. The vast majority of people throughout human history would freely admit that the truth should hold a special legal privilege over error. I'd certainly agree.
    What, none?

    Covering a child molestation ring is not "dissent." It's criminality. It is stunningly sad that you are so inculcated into defending a guy in a hat that you defend people who cover for child rapists. This is why we can't have nice things.

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    Re: Pope Francis will send ‘missionaries of mercy’ to absolve women of abortion ‘sin’

    Quote Originally Posted by Anomalism View Post
    No, I want pedophiles to see justice. If that means a religion has to change some of its rules in the process then so be it. Pedophiles should not have a safe haven, and I'm amazed that you would argue otherwise.
    That's like saying you believe the sky is blue. A true description of your opinions, but not the contested point.

    You want the ministers of a religion to be unable to obey its precepts. There's nothing wrong with that if the religion is false. The truth should hold a special place in the law, and falsehood should have no privileges under the law. I'd are completely with what I've just said.

    I'm not saying you shouldn't want leftism to be legally favored and Catholicism restricted, but you should see what you're arguing for, and thereby understand why people like me would want our understanding of the truth to be legally supported, and other systems restricted.

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    Re: Pope Francis will send ‘missionaries of mercy’ to absolve women of abortion ‘sin’

    Quote Originally Posted by Anomalism View Post
    I believe the Pope is trying to bring more left leaning ideas into the church in hopes of keeping his religion relevant.
    "Mercy" is hardly a "left leaning ideal," nor is it in any way a new idea within the Church.

    While I certainly don't share her tone, or overall attitude on the situation, S&M's appraisal of the Pope's intentions is ultimately correct. This is not in any way, shape, or form a validation of the unmitigated evil of institutionalized abortion. It is an attempt to reach out to women who may have had abortions due to desperate circumstances, and desire to reconcile with the community of the faithful.

    In many regards, they are just as much victims of the procedure as their unborn children.

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    Re: Pope Francis will send ‘missionaries of mercy’ to absolve women of abortion ‘sin’

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    What, none?

    Covering a child molestation ring is not "dissent." It's criminality. It is stunningly sad that you are so inculcated into defending a guy in a hat that you defend people who cover for child rapists. This is why we can't have nice things.
    Note that I'm not actually trying to convince that my POV is true right now, I know that's not practically possible. I'm just trying to help you think this through logically.

    For one, it doesn't matter that the Pope wears a hat, that literally is of no significance here at all.

    Second, confessors do not cover for their penitents, if a priest keeps a confession secret, it's no different in its effects than if the confession never occurred. The conduct you're arguing for a law against, is simply the keeping of secrecy. Which is fine, organizations which are harmful to society should not have legally recognized secrecy. I'd fully support requiring Masons to divulge the content of their ceremonies, for insurance. But if you're going to call for a group to be required to do things they can't comply with, you should at least be upfront about the fact that you want them suppressed.

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